Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2013, 10:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
He was with an LCA and was still on OE. All those eyes looking on in the cockpit watching it happen...
07-07-2013, 10:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
BTW, I just landed in LAX and you should have seen the appreciative almost spiritual thank you's from the pax. This stuff really shakes up the customers. Plus, with SFO down to one runway for the bigs, LAX was crazy!
07-07-2013, 10:34 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by buzzpat
What an absolute cluster.
07-08-2013, 12:24 AM
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: In the easy chair with a scotch on the rocks
Posts: 90
See y'all in a couple months
Hey Y'all,
Just finished the 717, 5 day differences. It was the fire hose effect. However, it was not that bad. I even enjoyed some of it. All the instructors were great. Hope this helps a few of y'all.
Cheers!
Guard Dude
Just finished the 717, 5 day differences. It was the fire hose effect. However, it was not that bad. I even enjoyed some of it. All the instructors were great. Hope this helps a few of y'all.
Cheers!
Guard Dude
07-08-2013, 02:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Guard Dude
Hey Y'all,
Just finished the 717, 5 day differences. It was the fire hose effect. However, it was not that bad. I even enjoyed some of it. All the instructors were great. Hope this helps a few of y'all.
Cheers!
Guard Dude
Just finished the 717, 5 day differences. It was the fire hose effect. However, it was not that bad. I even enjoyed some of it. All the instructors were great. Hope this helps a few of y'all.
Cheers!
Guard Dude
07-08-2013, 04:25 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
All this hand flying talk is great, but I don't think that's what caused this accident, only because I've been told the Asian Carriers use all the automation, all the time, and every landing is an autoland. Anyone can push the APP button, capture the glide slope/loc and let it do it's thing.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on short notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on short notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
07-08-2013, 04:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I'm not opposed to the DPA. I'm not opposed to DALPA. But I am opposed to ALPA National. I'd rather be independent.
YES!! ^^THIS!!^^
"FTB for President"
GJ
07-08-2013, 04:42 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
He was with an LCA and was still on OE. All those eyes looking on in the cockpit watching it happen...
Originally Posted by buzzpat
Well, take this with a huge grain of salt, it was CNN...but they said it was his first time flying as a qualified 777 CA and his first trip into SFO. I'm guessing he had a normal crew, no LCA, but that's total speculation. I can't imagine a LCA would let it deteriorate that badly.
Sounds implausible, but that may actually be the cause of this accident.
07-08-2013, 04:48 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Timbo
All this hand flying talk is great, but I don't think that's what caused this accident, only because I've been told the Asian Carriers use all the automation, all the time, and every landing is an autoland. Anyone can push the APP button, capture the glide slope/loc and let it do it's thing.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on short notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on short notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
I think if you toss into the mix the likelihood that the pilot probably turned off the auto throttles and manually held them back (fighting the wake up feature) you really are onto something.
07-08-2013, 04:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by Timbo
All this hand flying talk is great, but I don't think that's what caused this accident, only because I've been told the Asian Carriers use all the automation, all the time, and every landing is an autoland. Anyone can push the APP button, capture the glide slope/loc and let it do it's thing.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on shor t notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
That's great, until the ILS is turned off.
Now what do they do? They are going to have to hand fly it at some point.
Well you and I would already have loaded a VNAV path, and use automation or hand fly it on the path.
But is that what they did? And I'm still not clear on if they were side-stepped to the inboard, which would have them trying to load it in the FMS on shor t notice, or were they already set up for 28L, well out? It seems they were wayyyy behind, trying to get it down and slow it down, and 'new guy' may have gone heads down trying to update the box, looking for a VNAV path, or LCA guy may have been heads down, or BOTH of them may have been.
So somebody forgets the boards are up and power's at idle, gear down, flaps coming and you can go from high/hot to low/slow pretty quickly, if you let the FMS distract you, and you are looking down, for a VNAV path instead of looking out the window for the runway. If the autopilot was still engaged, it's just going to keep on driving down to what ever altitude they had set in the window, if it's got no VNAV Path or GS to capture or they are in FLCH or VS.
I'm guessing we'll get to play this game next time we go to the box for recurrent. No ILS, no Papi, Vasi, or VNAV path, here you go, fly it using automation starting from high and hot. Anyone can hand fly it, anyone who practices hand flying that is...but try to get the automation to do it, that'd take some work!
You and I would use V/S and put the green arc on the runway, problem solved, but do the Asians train like that? Or were they trying to build a VNAV path? And do they train to be fully configured, on speed, on path, at 1000'? Because from what we are seeing, they were far from that.
I agree.... I've been wanting to chime in on this but have been hesitant. I'm not throwing stones or being a Monday morning quarterback, but at some point you just have to land the damn plane and throw all the ils, automation, etc aside. Look outside and touch down on the pavement. I've never flown a big airliner so maybe I don't get it but all plane's I have flown have all had the same concept, (push down, big houses, pull up, little houses). At some point you have to throw everything down and fly the plane.
Disclaimer..... I'm not saying anything about this crew as I still don't think everything isn't known just yet. This is more for the talk about automation, ils, papi, etc.
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