Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2013 | 09:40 PM
Da Hudge
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From: Poodle Whisperer
I agree with most of that. I was just answering the question about when full automation was pushed, and my experience was though out my sim training and on my OE.
As for the increase on the PM, well, maybe it's different on the bus, but when I've had the pilot flying do that on the 88 and I have to do checklists, change his heading bug, slow his airspeed, make the radio call, configure the acft, back him up on level offs, update the box for the jerry rigged VNAV, make sure we clear out that last altitude with the descend direct, etc., well, it kept me busy at times 20 miles out from ATL where I would have liked to have more scan time and less heads down time. Maybe another 3000 hours and I'll have a better handle on things.
As for the increase on the PM, well, maybe it's different on the bus, but when I've had the pilot flying do that on the 88 and I have to do checklists, change his heading bug, slow his airspeed, make the radio call, configure the acft, back him up on level offs, update the box for the jerry rigged VNAV, make sure we clear out that last altitude with the descend direct, etc., well, it kept me busy at times 20 miles out from ATL where I would have liked to have more scan time and less heads down time. Maybe another 3000 hours and I'll have a better handle on things.
The 88 is definitely the busiest cockpit, so your aversion is definitely understandable there! The hand flying that early as you described there on approach is definitely more of a burden as there is a lot going on- on climb out and once established on approach.... no biggie, even on the angry dawg.
That being said, when flying a visual approach, instead of managing all that crap, turning off the AP, FD, and AT is the least workload possible for the PM while the most rewarding for the PF no matter the fleet.
It's by far my favorite when made available.
07-07-2013 | 09:40 PM
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From: Light Chop
That's pretty illogical (nothing personal- just it doesn't follow)... Follow me here:
The sim by nature is going to be mostly automated. You're typically dealing with abnormals and have to manage the aircraft appropriately. A higher level of automation is preferred when one guy is head down running the QRH and coordinating all the stuff that accompanies that. So, of course you don't get to hand fly a bunch in the sim since you're dealing with the aircraft breaking most of the time.
Line operations are largely normal ops, right? So, it follows that a reduction in automation would not only be appropriate but encouraged during line operations until things go south.
Hand flying is a minimal workload increase for the PM and I expect/anticipate the other guy to hand fly a while until proven otherwise. It's not that massive of a workload increase, even out of NYC or the like... I'd hardly call it a burden. I got this job because I like pressing buttons- not trying to avoid it.
The sim by nature is going to be mostly automated. You're typically dealing with abnormals and have to manage the aircraft appropriately. A higher level of automation is preferred when one guy is head down running the QRH and coordinating all the stuff that accompanies that. So, of course you don't get to hand fly a bunch in the sim since you're dealing with the aircraft breaking most of the time.
Line operations are largely normal ops, right? So, it follows that a reduction in automation would not only be appropriate but encouraged during line operations until things go south.
Hand flying is a minimal workload increase for the PM and I expect/anticipate the other guy to hand fly a while until proven otherwise. It's not that massive of a workload increase, even out of NYC or the like... I'd hardly call it a burden. I got this job because I like pressing buttons- not trying to avoid it.
and on a line check
I may be exaggerating to be funny, but humor requires an element of truth, so maybe I'm not, but I am, but I'm not not, so i've covered all of my bases here. But look who hand flies the least statistically.
That said, I hope, and it looks like, we may move in your desired direction. As long as you don't fart in our general direction. Again, humor requires an element of truth.
Oh by the way, if this helps shine some light on the subject, Departure Briefing.... COMPLETE. Not completed. It's just complete. You keep saying completed. No D.
07-07-2013 | 09:43 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
BTW, it's Departure Briefing... COMPLETE. Not completed. Complete. No D.
/venting
/venting
07-07-2013 | 09:44 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
BTW, it's Departure Briefing... COMPLETE. Not completed. Complete. No D.
/venting
/venting
07-07-2013 | 09:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
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From: window seat
I agree with most of that. I was just answering the question about when full automation was pushed, and my experience was though out my sim training and on my OE.
As for the increase on the PM, well, maybe it's different on the bus, but when I've had the pilot flying do that on the 88 and I have to do checklists, change his heading bug, slow his airspeed, make the radio call, configure the acft, back him up on level offs, update the box for the jerry rigged VNAV, make sure we clear out that last altitude with the descend direct, etc., well, it kept me busy at times 20 miles out from ATL where I would have liked to have more scan time and less heads down time. Maybe another 3000 hours and I'll have a better handle on things.
As for the increase on the PM, well, maybe it's different on the bus, but when I've had the pilot flying do that on the 88 and I have to do checklists, change his heading bug, slow his airspeed, make the radio call, configure the acft, back him up on level offs, update the box for the jerry rigged VNAV, make sure we clear out that last altitude with the descend direct, etc., well, it kept me busy at times 20 miles out from ATL where I would have liked to have more scan time and less heads down time. Maybe another 3000 hours and I'll have a better handle on things.
I just hope we don't get barraged with memos and edicts from on high because of this, either way.
07-07-2013 | 09:48 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
Classic line of the nigh: so pilots have 32 hour layover. FAs have a 32 hour layover at the same hotel. All, don't know how, are hanging out together. FO's wife has come along for the trip.
FA jokingly says to the FO's wife: "why did the Delta pilots wives club allow the FAs and pilots to stay at the hotel together for 32 hours?"
FO's wife: "oh I'm not concerned. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you could take care of it for me so I don't have to."
FA jokingly says to the FO's wife: "why did the Delta pilots wives club allow the FAs and pilots to stay at the hotel together for 32 hours?"
FO's wife: "oh I'm not concerned. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you could take care of it for me so I don't have to."
07-07-2013 | 09:50 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Well, I'm not going to point fingers in at any one particular fleet but autopilot OFF below 10K and judicious hand flying would make you like a
(too many images)
and on a line check
I may be exaggerating to be funny, but humor requires an element of truth, so maybe I'm not, but I am, but I'm not not, so i've covered all of my bases here. But look who hand flies the least statistically.
That said, I hope, and it looks like, we may move in your desired direction. As long as you don't fart in our general direction. Again, humor requires an element of truth.
(too many images)
and on a line check
I may be exaggerating to be funny, but humor requires an element of truth, so maybe I'm not, but I am, but I'm not not, so i've covered all of my bases here. But look who hand flies the least statistically.
That said, I hope, and it looks like, we may move in your desired direction. As long as you don't fart in our general direction. Again, humor requires an element of truth.
Strange how the 88 has seemingly strayed off the normal DL course since I was there.
Statistically, the Airbus 320 fleet hand flies the lowest of all the fleets. I guess that's because we're never actually in control of what the airplane does.
I also treat a line check/fed ride virtually the same as every flight. Keep the ball in bounds and they have no room to question you. If they do, question them right back respectfully. Enjoy the watching the backpeddle.
07-07-2013 | 09:54 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Exactly. Clicking it all off just to polish skills isn't always the best idea. 4 mile wide airways and +/- a few hundred feet all day are long, long gone. We're in the age of "hey no problem with us" from ATC and here comes an auto generated deviation for almost nothing. And nextgen isn't even here yet. There are times to click stuff off. Sometimes all of it, either for operational necessity or good old fashioned practice. But creating and then doubling the tunnel vision you just created while simultaneously increasing workload doesn't mesh well with the plus/minus nothing operating environment that's closing in around us. When it comes to the magic, sometimes more is less. The accident that kicked this discussion off in the first place could end up being a case of clicking everything off. A more assertive PM that said a lot more a lot sooner will save the day a million times more than a culture of hand flying just to hand fly.
I just hope we don't get barraged with memos and edicts from on high because of this, either way.
I just hope we don't get barraged with memos and edicts from on high because of this, either way.
There are times to do so, and times to not- I was not saying handfly the plane down from 10k every time. It's rare for me to do so except on a slam dunk redeye on the downwind in ATL where it's just easier to turn it all off.
07-07-2013 | 09:57 PM
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From: Light Chop
What's it like to fly the A320 with the autopilot off:
The 777
And the MD-88... which is the same as the MD-90 with it on:
and trust me. I went easy on the pic there. how that is called a sport is beyond me.
The 777
And the MD-88... which is the same as the MD-90 with it on:
and trust me. I went easy on the pic there. how that is called a sport is beyond me.
07-07-2013 | 10:03 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Poodle Whisperer
In FLCH for descent the AT mode goes to HOLD upon reaching idle. That's a big gotcha for every plane with AT that I've flown... know if you're in fixed thrust or variable thrust.
NW had an airbus crew do the similar with the airbus equivalent of FLCH years back. They were below 100 feet when they entered the stall regime (slow and below path) so alpha floor protection didn't kick in (remember the tolouse lawnmower?), subsqeuently they smacked the airplane pretty dang hard into the ground.
NW had an airbus crew do the similar with the airbus equivalent of FLCH years back. They were below 100 feet when they entered the stall regime (slow and below path) so alpha floor protection didn't kick in (remember the tolouse lawnmower?), subsqeuently they smacked the airplane pretty dang hard into the ground.
I'd be willing to bet this is another incident like the airbus lawnmower and NW incident previously described.
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