Originally Posted by Erdude32

Can we PUULLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE quit beating the dead horse of C2012??? Was it perfect? No. Was it a step forward? Yes. Could we have done better? Yes. Does arguing over who's crank is bigger now do any of us any good? NO! We are now what, a year +/- from openers? All we are doing on here is publicly demonstrating our division, as if the DPA derailment wasn't enough. The more divided we are will have a direct correlation in the amount of $ we extract from the Company.

Want to do something useful with our time instead of fighting each other? We need to be informational picketing the White House over the Pre-Clearance facility and Norwegian Air. We are being boiled slowly and the camels nose is no longer under the tent....he's IN the tent. Cabbotage is coming our way faster than a fat lazy Congressman can be bought off. THIS is how they will solve the Pilot shortage. Wait for it. Within 5 years Norwegian, Ryan or another startup will order 6-700 737's to be flown in the US. Boeing will trip over itself to lobby for Cabbotage.

If we don't stop this NOW...it's too late.

Calling on ALPA, APA, SWAPA to issue a Nationwide SOD and shut it down. Lobbying has been tried and failed.

In the meantime we are still in a p!ss!ng contest over who was right about C2012.

WAKE THE F UP!!!

Originally Posted by CVG767A

No, I didn't know what you were referring to. That being said, I may may be over sensitive to hearing "paid ALPA volunteer" far too often. While there may be some in ALPA that are abusing their position, the vast majority just do their work quietly, and on their own time.

For the many of you that expressed thanks, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by tsquare

And you believe we do not have that? You think it is a bunch of rank amateurs that go into each and every contract negotiation, completely unarmed and completely clueless? Your lack of any kind of faith in those that are representing you is amazing, but what is even more amazing is that you think paying someone who has absolutely nothing to do with this, and does not have to live with any of the results will give us a better product. I really do not understand that mindset. Hired guns don't are about you or me. They care about their paycheck. And when it's done, it's done. As a matter of fact, when you think about it, they have less incentive to deliver a timely superior contract because that way they can stretch it out and make mo money.

The contract is what it is. I have 12 years left if I stay until 65. I might.. might not, it depends on whether or not I am still having fun.
.

Originally Posted by TheManager

So, first, I take exception to your inference that I have the such limited or simple concept of how negotiations are conducted.

Of course I believe they are prepared and are doing what they perceive as their best work.

Facts show that this is not always the case.

Our contracts, as well as others ALPA has done, have been peppered with language loop holes that have had an adverse effect on us. Taking the time to have a TA proofed by an unjaundiced third party is good business for the pilots.

Additionally, your view of how to effectively motivate an outside negotiator is too linear and simple.

Instead of the common pedestrian view, branch out T.

A firm that were to take on a negotiation for a measured percentage of the the gain over the previous contract is now a vested partner. When bouncing this idea off a the CEO of a large multinational law firm, this individual contemplated this for a moment and offered that if this ever materialized that the pilot group would be one of their top 5 clients.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I was an architect in another life. My wife wants a house that is flood proof, storm proof, fireproof, tornado proof, bomb proof, impossible to break in, and she wants floor to ceiling glass in every room that has 20' ceilings. Possible? Maybe. In the construction world, you have to deal with God. In the world of contracts, you have to deal with lawyers who are trained to argue both side of any issue. There is no such thing as a contract that will not have an exploitable loophole. I think what you are advocating in red is way more expensive than the potential gain that would be realized. I don't want an outside vested partner. Why do you? Dealing with God is much easier, and probably costs a lot less than dealing with lawyers.

Oh, and T4 is abysmal... professionally speaking.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I was an architect in another life. My wife wants a house that is flood proof, storm proof, fireproof, tornado proof, bomb proof, impossible to break in, and she wants floor to ceiling glass in every room that has 20' ceilings. Possible? Maybe. In the construction world, you have to deal with God. In the world of contracts, you have to deal with lawyers who are trained to argue both side of any issue. There is no such thing as a contract that will not have an exploitable loophole. I think what you are advocating in red is way more expensive than the potential gain that would be realized. Dealing with God is much easier, and probably costs a lot less.

Oh, and T4 is abysmal... professionally speaking.

Originally Posted by Erdude32

Can we PUULLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE quit beating the dead horse of C2012??? Was it perfect? No. Was it a step forward? Yes. Could we have done better? Yes. Does arguing over who's crank is bigger now do any of us any good? NO! We are now what, a year +/- from openers? All we are doing on here is publicly demonstrating our division, as if the DPA derailment wasn't enough. The more divided we are will have a direct correlation in the amount of $ we extract from the Company.

Want to do something useful with our time instead of fighting each other? We need to be informational picketing the White House over the Pre-Clearance facility and Norwegian Air. We are being boiled slowly and the camels nose is no longer under the tent....he's IN the tent. Cabbotage is coming our way faster than a fat lazy Congressman can be bought off. THIS is how they will solve the Pilot shortage. Wait for it. Within 5 years Norwegian, Ryan or another startup will order 6-700 737's to be flown in the US. Boeing will trip over itself to lobby for Cabbotage.

If we don't stop this NOW...it's too late.

Calling on ALPA, APA, SWAPA to issue a Nationwide SOD and shut it down. Lobbying has been tried and failed.

In the meantime we are still in a p!ss!ng contest over who was right about C2012.

WAKE THE F UP!!!

Originally Posted by tsquare

Oh, and T4 is abysmal... professionally speaking.

Originally Posted by gloopy

While its certainlly not bad news, it still doesn't point to anything beyond the 300 originally approved. There's still more classes on the way through summer, and obviously they have to have places to put them.

I do find it interesting that we are still interviewing even though the pool + flows is already enough to more than cover what remains of the original 300 openings (including furlough returns).