I hope so, I'm about to start year 2 of my last decade.

 

Gee Slow,

When the picture is painted like that it makes one think that maybe expanding the number of C scale pilot jobs wasn't a good thing. Now we (mainline pilots) have to compete against all of those really low paying jobs that we allowed to happen on C2012.

Hopefully DALPA and the pilot group will learn from this and stop allowing more large RJ's onto the property. I agree with T on this (did I really just say that?) the RJ problem will largely take care of itself, let's stop prolonging the pain.

 

I disagree. I think it's about to Delta's "math problem." They will need the feed and the various regionals will no longer be up to the challenge.

As Tsquare put it, our challenge is to get that flying on the list. If the market rate for that kind of flying gets significantly more expensive, then it will be up to management to decide how to handle that - some routes may not support the higher costs, etc.

What we need to do, is come up with a pre-packaged solution, so when Delta does start having operational disruptions due to the cancelled flights we are ready.

It could even be some sort of transition period, with hybrid rates to bridge the gap. Hire all of their guys to the bottom of the list (so they start accruing seniority/longevity), and each year bring them over little-by-little. THAT would be a carrot (not this craziness where they work long-term for crappy rates just for the opportunity at a mere interview. As long as there is a short/medium term plan to get eventually get all that flying in house on the A-scale, then I could get behind it.

I also agree with T that this should not cost us a penny. It is in our mutual interest that the feed is flown without interruption. Arguably mgmt has more to lose by not bringing them in, as we've already lost them. It's hard to lose what you don't currently have...

 

No worries, nobody is saying your group didn't get dinged. You most definitely did. Scope is the reason why we have 3 lists, and are so fractured to this day. Mgmt. loves every minute of that because it pays them back dividends in the form of negotiating leverage they never had before. I think they'll fight it to the end, even if the economics don't make sense.

 

Bar, was just looking at the pics you posted and saw that you gave me a shout-out..thanks for the free press!

If I could address your points;

It frustrates me, and 1310 other DL furloughees, when you continue to blame us and ALPA for our own furlough, and yet refuse to admit that RJ captains benefitted greatly when we were replaced. I'm usually a pretty low key guy, but that loss of situational awareness requires a response.

DL pilots supported Comair as a gesture of UNITY by supporting the Comair strike and sending assessment checks. I don't have a pic of me checking the Struck Work guide while flying sideways out of CVG..but please know WE took the strike seriously and had the VISION to lift the RJ pay rates closer to mainline as the only way to prevent whipsawing.

Once again; DL pilots negotiated a no furlough clause in our contract. Since we had that clause, the threat of being REPLACED by RJ's was nullified, and we AGREED to unlimited 50 seat jets flying our pax to LIFT the entire profession.

Then 9/11 and Force Majuere..

 

Bar, was just looking at the pics you posted and saw that you gave me a shout-out..thanks for the free press!

If I could address your points;

It frustrates me, and 1310 other DL furloughees, when you continue to blame us and ALPA for our own furlough, and yet refuse to admit that RJ captains benefitted greatly when we were replaced. I'm usually a pretty low key guy, but that loss of situational awareness requires a response.

DL pilots supported Comair as a gesture of UNITY by supporting the Comair strike and sending assessment checks. I don't have a pic of me checking the Struck Work guide while flying sideways out of CVG..but please know WE took the strike seriously and had the VISION to lift the RJ pay rates closer to mainline as the only way to prevent whipsawing.

Once again; DL pilots negotiated a no furlough clause in our contract. Since we had that clause, the threat of being REPLACED by RJ's was nullified, and we AGREED to unlimited 50 seat jets flying our pax to LIFT the entire profession.

Then 9/11 and Force Majuere..

JC and the Comair MEC refused to let DL furloughees sit in the RIGHT seat of the shiny new RJ's we had agreed to let fly in UNLIMITED numbers. You say that it's our fault for not demonstrating unity with the Comair/ASA pilots..and therefore we reap what we sowed. My point is that we had ALREADY demonstrated unity with Comair and when the &@$@ hit the fan, the gesture of UNITY was not returned in kind.

Let's move forward to today. I think you and I would agree that we need to bring ALL Delta branded flying back to mainline, regardless of acft size, and make Delta the airline of choice for professional aviators from winging to retirement. We should have just kept CPZ, stapled their list, and secured a quality feed with a quality acft for the future. But would the senior CPZ captains form an RJDC to sue for DOH, putting them in front of you? We would be reliving the good ol' Comair yrs. Or does it make sense to keep us separate, control a flow up, which effectively does the same thing?

Again.you and I want the same thing for the future. Our individual pasts dictate our individual reaction to past furloughs.

 

This is a huge point. Just because those that are currently here had to "pay our dues" doesn't mean that we should let the future pilots languish for years with no hope in sight.

What you're outlining, BB, is a win-win-win for regional pilots, us, and Delta. Now how to get all parties to agree on something like that is a completely different story.

 

I don't GAS about productivity. I push throttles. You push throttles, Carl Spackler pushes throttles. None of us bought or determines what operates where. The productivity argument is great right up until those really big and really productive gas guzzling airplanes go to the desert. Then we all lose. Pay me for pushing throttles. Pay the RJ guys for pushing throttles (on Delta pay scales). This will sink in someday.

But I'll stipulate that the "what can I get for this" is a better argument.

 

Part II:

Major airlines other choice is to accept a reset in the express flying cost model which probably doubles labor costs. Even then, they will constantly lose pilots to other express carriers offering better pay or signing bonus money.

If express flying gets too expensive, then our feed from smaller markets will diminish. Everything in this business is still running slim margins. Can we afford to lose that business traveller from Topeka to Asia?

The other advantages to unity have been well covered here before:

• Currently our airline operates not three fleet types in express operations, but something like 14. We have ExpressJet, Chautauqua, Compass, GoJet Airlines, Endeavor Air, Shuttle America and SkyWest ... none of those operator's airplanes, or pilots, are interchangeable. Think of the logistical nightmare FAR 117 becomes during irops. How much more efficient could our airline be by scheduling those airplanes (which cost 2/3rd's of what we're paying for 737-900's) in ways that make the most sense instead of around 6 different Certificates?
• How much do the redundancies in Corporate structures cost? Right now if a Delta manager wants a change, he tells a Delta Connection manager who tells a Skywest manager who tells an Expressjet manager to execute a decision.

The other part of this nut will be going to the FAA and possibly Congress to revise flight training rules. 1,500 hours is a nearly insurmountable wall. We should want to revise this BEFORE Airlines 4 America beats us to the punch with some sort of a euro style multi crew license. We should integrate our training proposal on the basis of military flight training which has some reliance on mentorship. That mentorship should be based in the Delta way of doing things.


Some think it is very important that Delta interview these pilots. I agree. Express flying on a Delta ticket is Delta flying. Those pilots should be Delta pilots. Which division Delta wants to operate it with is up to management, but as a union, we should do our best to make sure one of us is flying the plane.

 

It appears you do not disagree. You've posted a potential solution to the math problem. One caveat, Delta doesn't operate in isolation. There are 2 other network carriers that have significant outsourced feed. To get your counterparty to "yes" you have to recognize the environment in which you're operating.

If you can show Delta that they'll have improved revenue due to stable feed while the other carriers don't/won't....also remember DCI airframes and pilots are planned to shrink by about 20% over the duration of C2012.