Scoop, sorry man. I completely agree with you and I read way too much into your post. :)

Did we just put an A330-300 in the new colors into storage at MZJ?

I'm going to get a bumper sticker made for my flight kit: "I Read Airline Pilot Forums.Com/Major/Latest & Greatest about Delta." Its a bit long right now, I'll have to shorten to "I Read!" And if thats too long, "I Red."

But hey, I'll poke myself in the eye here. I have a motivation, I do not want to lose my good job. I fear the relaxation of scope, I fear Alaska, I fear a merger with Alaska, I fear the DC9 leaving, I fear anything that could cost us jobs. So I am a scope before pay kind of guy (even though I like getting paid and I love our work rules) and I understand that not all would agree and I admit the dangers of being myopic.

With that said, is there any downside in fighting for stronger scope, for grabing Compass, for bringing in the 76 or not allowing anyone to have them, or any other scope related issue, etc?

I'll hang up and listen.

We don't need anger, but we do need to make sure management (and everyone else concerned) understands that this pilot group has not accepted our current situation as any kind of "baseline" from which to improve. We need to make sure it is clearly understood that we made ridiculous and unnecessarily large sacrifices to supposedly save the company (not all of us bought that, BTW), and that there can be no mutually respectful relationship between the pilot group and management until management begins to treat us in a respectful way and we are being compensated at an appropriate level for the situation.

For example, we took a 42% pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. Getting a few low single digit increases to our pay rates doesn't do anything other than keep our emergency/bankruptcy rates adjusted for inflation. In this economy and the situation right now in our industry, it's obviously not realistic to expect that we would get the 73%+ pay increase it would take to restore our pay. But it also needs to be clearly understood that a couple percent here and there isn't going to come anywhere close to cutting it. This is where the present MEC administration has failed us miserably, IMO... by setting (whether intentional or unintentional) expectations on the part of both management and the pilot group way too low.

Great article. Technical enough to make my eyeballs bleed. :)

Mergers of airlines never create the synergies that are hoped for. They do create some very short term wealth for those who oversee and consummate the merger. Hate to be a cynic about this, but as they say, "it is what it is".

I don't mean to but into your affairs here but....

I hear the same thing on the APA wailing wall - "it's unrealistic to get a 50% raise right now."

The sad part is, whenever asked to expand upon such reasoning, a well-reasoned answer has been elusive. Instead, an emotional answer usually ensues.

When you actually look at the actual cost of what it would take to restore your (and mine) contracts to a level reflecting the 2000 UAL and DAL TAs, we are talking basically about adding 5 bucks to a passengers ticket.

The usual response to that is, "we need to be competitive." Well, yes, but you are assuming that all of the other carriers will not follow suit. AA pilots are gunning for pay that is near DAL 2000 levels, and that is just pay. UAL opens soon, and everything I have seen and heard points to UAL 2000 rates plus "interest."

How is your airline "uncompetitive" if everyone is making basically the same money? Southwest and the cargo carriers are already paying way more. How is it WN is able to pay so much and yet financially clean everyone's clock? How is it that carriers like Skybus go out of business paying their employees peanuts? Can you name a carrier that has ever been put into ch. 7 due to pilot costs?

Lastly, if you could make a list of some of the more egregious ways management has wasted money, you will quickly eclipse the dollar figure of any pilot pay increase package. Why is it "not realistic" for you to get paid what you are worth, but "realistic" for management to waste 10s of millions on ineptitude?

It is managements job to pass the pay on to customers and to manage an airline with the competence of a pro worth the 10s of million they pay themselves. This is THEIR problem. By opening with "it's not realistic", you have lost the battle before it begins.

Slightly unrelated to the current conversation trend, but still a Delta question. With the JV with Virgin Blue do Delta have any non rev privliges? I'd like to get from Sydney to NZ and with this nice new JV figured I could use Vir Blue.

I didn't say that you need 1800 pilots to pass a resolution. It is great for people to be involved and make their views known. What is wrong is the opinion, "I passed a resolution, so now that is the will of the pilots." In the case of this scope resolution (which, by the way, I have no problem with) there was a concerted effort by a group with a strong feeling about this subject to organize and attend the LEC Meeting with the express purpose of passing this resolution. Great, that is part of democracy. That is not the whole part.

For instance, it wouldn't be hard to organize a large group of people to pack a town hall meeting with my congressman, that all support "xxxxx" position in health care reform. (I use "xxxxx" because I don't want to get into a political discussion about health care). They could get hundreds of people to jam their phone lines, they could make appointment after appointment at his office. Does this mean that "xxxxx" position now has to be the law of the land? Does it even mean that my congressman should have to adopt that position?

It is easy for a highly motivated minority to organize and present a display of overwhelming support when in fact it is not the majority position. Grass roots efforts are one part of the equation but that is not the whole equation. Democracy is not just listening to the loudest voices.

In fact, the founders of the country formed a representational democracy, we don't rule by polls, we rule by sending representatives to government, where hopefully they educate themselves on the issues, listen to ALL their constituents, talk with other representatives, and then make an informed decision.

I support people going to meetings and talking to their reps. If they want to pass a resolution then great. What I have a problem with is when these people now say "I have spoken, do what I say!" Other people speak too and they have to be heard. What we have seen is that after these resolutions have passed, the pilots that organized the resolutions demand that their voices are now the only ones heard and they have to be followed. That is just a little too demanding in my view. What about the rest of the council, do their views not matter at all?

Yes. It was due for a C check. Will be back on the line in the spring

A point of clarification. UAL and DAL weren't TA's. We were paid those rates for 3-4 years. APA, already about 20% below those rates, turned them down, then in 2003 led the "race to the bottom" with a 23% cut.

The combined Delta carries about 180 million passengers per year, with total passenger revenue of about $24 billion. That works out to about $130 per passenger ticket. To return to C2K levels at Delta (not just compensation, but including work rules and retirement) would require each of those passengers to pay an additional $10 per ticket, or an 8% increase in cost. While that doesn't sound like much, that price puts the fare at the bottom of GRS displays by a long shot. There has to be a compelling reason for a passenger to pay the difference. By the way, that increase is on the average ticket. The averages are skewed by frequent flyer redemptions on the bottom, so the actual price increases are much greater.

In 2000 only 2 airlines "followed suit." AMR saved over $3 billion in pilot salaries alone from 2000-2005 when compared to Delta. Delta went bankrupt. AMR didn't.

Business models. They're different. They bring in different revenues and have different cost. As to bankruptcy, that's mostly a function of bad business decisions, but as I pointed out above, costs, including pilot costs, do matter. You haven't been to the courts yet because you've had some of the best financial management in the business and they've saved a ton on pilot costs.

Can't argue this one. Inept management has killed many airlines. Last count was about 170 since deregulation. Yet they get to move on through the management turnstyle to "pursue other opportunities." Labor is stuck with the mess. Show me a different paradigm. I'm all eyes and ears. But saying that costs can increase without consequence isn't realistic.

By not acknowledging the reality of our environment and the differences in business models, it becomes YOUR problem. Management easily moves on. You don't and can't. Again, show me the paradigm that works, the one where airlines can't use labor arbitrage as their business strategy. That's the way LUV built their business. The LUV pilots didn't get to industry leading contract by leading the profession. The rest of the airlines fell behind them.

There are incompetent management teams out there. Delta sure had them. 170 of them have gone bankrupt. But if you think they weren't competing for the last nickel they could pick up, then you aren't in the same world that I'm in. Again, I wish the world was different, that management was actually held accountable for their performance. They aren't (for the most part). Some are. Mullin and Reid are gone from Delta. Carty is gone from AMR. But we see too many recycled hacks and failures like Tilton allowed to manage good money into bad. That's the reality. Delta pilots lost 42% and their pension during the last decade caused by Mullin's mismanagement. Mullin left with a multimillion parachute and is now a TARP recipient at Goldman Sachs.

The reality sucks. It will be interesting to see how you guys get 52% when your company is already losing tons of money, and the increase you're looking for will only put them further in the hole. APA hasn't exactly had a sterling track record in front of the courts, arbitrations, or the NMB. But I sincerely wish you luck. Your success would help us all.