Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Teach (Post 684683)

Unbelieveable. Exhibit #1 everyone. Arrogance. An offensive display of superiorty or self-importance; overbearing pride.

Particularly for our pre merger NWA brothers and sisters. I'd like to introduce you all today to the the extreme arrogance that personifies the pre merger DALPA union leadership.

It does not matter that the membership identified an issue that they felt needed to be addressed.

It does not matter that the membership then formed and wrote a resolution, as per the Roberts Rules of Order.

It does not matter that the resolution was added to the meeting agenda as per the same Roberts Rules of Order.

It does not matter that the resolution was voted on by the 44 LEC membership and passed.

It is also irregardless if those votes were proxy votes, actual member in attendance votes, or, how those proxies were collected. The average pilot in the membership works over half the month on various days of the week across multiple time zones. A large number of the membership also commutes to their domicile cities. Why wouldn't our association leadership expect anything but a larger percentage of proxy votes on an issue? The limitations of our careers predestine that to be.

Finally, how should those who would like to arrange for their voice and their vote to be heard organize a method where that can be accomplished. Particularly if their schedule had them sitting in ACC covered in DEET instead of at the LCC meeting.

That's right Einstein, as you said the phone and the internet web boards are great communication tools. And, they are effective.

So, tell us all again. How is a resolution that is crafted by the membership and passed by a vote, proxy or actual, not considered the will of the council? It does not matter what percentage of the council membership votes on the resolution. When was the last time any vote of the membership included more than 50% participation outside of contract and bankruptcy related votes?

The point is, when that resolution passes it becomes an issue that needs to be addressed and not arrogantly brushed off.

Finally, being that resolutions voted on and passed by the LEC members do not represent the will of the council as you say, what does. Wilson polling?

It is this arrogance, this offensive display of superiority and self-importance, that is leading to the changes that are starting to occur now in the association. The elected LEC and the MEC are supposed to work for their constituents, not against them. Ignore them and their issues long enough and you will be replaced. Here is a hint. It will probably be a majority of proxy votes that are counted when the end arrives. Change is coming.

-Teach

I guess you think making insults gives you a better argument. It doesn't, it just makes you look childish. What you want is for the reps to represent the will of the council. That means the whole council. People that show up at LEC meetings are PART of that council. In the case of this resolution, it was obvious that a concerted effort was made to pack the meeting with people who had a strong feeling about the matter. Just because you packed the meeting and passed a resolution it does not mean that it represents the will of the council. Now you want to start a hissy fit because you didn't get your way. Boo hoo.

So, do you want the elected reps to represent the entire will of the council, or just the people that organize to pack one LEC meeting? I am sure that the reps considered that resolution as representing those pilots views, but it is arrogant to think that you can organize a small group and have that push around the entire council.

You talk about this big change in the union. As far as I can tell, in Council 44, there is only one guy running for reelection. I think that means there will be turnover no matter what. I don't know about council 20. Being a rep is hard work and I am sure that many of the current reps are ready to go back to line flying.

I have seen this many times before. You get a small group on web boards or organized to pack a meeting and they now think they own the whole union. Good luck with that. Maybe you think tossing around insults gets you better results. Good luck with that. A good rep will sound out the entire council and not just listen to those voices that are the loudest and most insulting.

My advice to you is to grow up. You don't convince anyone with your insults and you make yourself look like a fool. If you want to effect change then do some work. Yelling insults on the web board is a waste of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 684738)

Alfa-

I'm upset with your comments towards the resolutions that have been passed but tabled. I didn't know anyone at the last few meetings. I went on my own free will and cast a vote. With MY vote I helped to get a resolution passed. I am just a line pilot and not a union guy but I EXPECT MY UNION TO LISTEN TO ME!! I pay union members to work for me with MY DUES. When I vote and a resolution passes I want action. Why does council 44 think they are better than the average line pilot. A resolution was passed and ignored. The union needs to do their job and listen to what were saying.:mad::mad:

Well, the reps have a responsibility to the entire group, but IMHO when a resolution is asked that requires action, it should be acted upon.
The CPS resolution in march asked for the lec to ask the mec to rework the numbers. Well, the MEC did not feel that is or was necessary. They took action, like it or not.
IMHO they should have reworked the numbers, and IF they could not let the group know the results of that rework at least tell the group that they did. That was the action that was requested.

Now, based upon the many conversations I have had, it is my opinion that the MEC does not feel that they can successfully recapture part of the 76 seat flying and not all of it. There is a point to that, but there are ways to deal with CPS in a progressive manner and protect the section one language that could hang us.
Does it cost capital to do that? Heck yes. The ones that I talk to want it. Unless you are privy to the data the MEC sees, the group as a whole may not. I want to get to the bottom of that. As I see it the vote on the MEC was unnanamaous. That means the NWA folks too. CPS is their baby, but they opted not to look at it either. Why is that? It makes not sense to me, but it made sense to both sides.
Recapture of lost flying is an ugly task, but one that needs to be done. Putting CPS on the list is not the only answer, but doing so drops a lot of dominoes that would be difficult to do so otherwise. No matter what tatic we decided to take, we need to do it.
DCI employs 7500 pilots. Those are a lot of jobs that could be jobs at mainline.
I do understand that what is doing what is best for the group is not sometimes popular, nor easy, but if our current direction is both, the group as a whole needs to be educated as to why. When there are this many people "packing" LEC meetings across the system to get similar resolutions passed, there are more than just a few people that do not like the way the math adds up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoserpilot (Post 684749)

They are listening to you, but you are just one voice. Being heard and getting your way are two different things. They represent 3800 or so pilots.

Ahhhhh......politics. Behnke is probably dust from rolling over in his grave so much. My how ALPAs goals have changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoserpilot (Post 684749)

Re the pay, we pay dues, sometimes its used for flight pay loss, I would imagine if you ask any volunteer...they would say you couldn't pay them enough. Agree with AR, they do listen, but you need to build a concensus and argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 684772)

They are listening to you, but you are just one voice. Being heard and getting your way are two different things. They represent 3800 or so pilots.

I'm happy they are listening. Yes I am just one voice. Guess what, one voice that votes can even elect a president in this country. This one voice voted with other one voices and asked the LEC to do something. They chose to ignore the collective voices that got off the couch, put down the remote, and went to a meeting. What did the Wilson polling say? Did the other 3750 pilots that didn't go to the meeting get polled and say they don't want the union to do anything when a resolution is passed? Just this year 44 is 0 for 2.

- resolution to explore compass - tabled
- resolution to give a scope report - where is it??? only those at the meeting saw anything

I'm not asking to get my way like a spoiled little kid. I just don't think the line pilots should be ignored when they vote and pass a resolution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 684738)

You accuse someone of being childish and end your post with "boo hoo." I love it :D Questions:

Where do most of the pilots who staff D-ALPA's various functions in our office office in Atlanta live?
Soooo they'd belong to which local Council?
Guess where they cast their votes?

It is just funny that you think a couple of junior reserve losers could so manipulate the system that they could get resolutions passed which were adverse to the vast majority of pilots who have the ability to bid off for the C44 meeting - and get it. No, that wasn't what happened at all.

First, there were no proxies counted for the first resolution because our Secretary Treasurer did not put the resolution on the Agenda and under the rules no proxies would have been accepted. There was an open debate professionally managed by the Chairman and Secretary. The assembled powers that be spoke against "telling the MEC their job" and as a block, they voted against it both of these C44 "scope" resolutions. The majority voted for the resolutions and they passed.

At Thursday's meeting there was again that same block seated in the right rear corner of the room, scowling at the left rear corner of the room. Both sides cast their votes for the Candidates they wanted, as is their right.

You are right that getting local Council votes passed and getting action are two vastly different things. The process works that way to moderate and rationalize the MEC's activities. I understand and agree. But, you need to accept that those who want a change in our scope policy are every bit as persistent as you are and they have a right to participate in the management of their union.

Compromises can certainly be reached - everyone wants what is best for Delta pilots. Eventually these young Bucks will run the show. Those who are focused on retirement are focused on retirement for a reason, it ain't that far away.

The young guys are looking for growth and promotional opportunities which only come with Delta doing more flying. It isn't that radical an agenda and it is perfectly understandable.

Do you suggest we stop holding Council meetings? After all, people with "strong feelings" about our union are the ones most motivated to attend and we should not be listening to them. :p

We may disagree, but I'm always appreciative of the fact that at least you have "strong feelings" about making things even better for Delta pilots.

[quote=alfaromeo;684738]

I guess you think making insults gives you a better argument.

I don't really agree with Alfa regarding his take on the Scope grievance but he is 100% correct on one point - all other things considered personal insults to fellow pilots will detract from your argument.

We have probably all posted some foolish things, I know that I have, but I think we are better served directing our anger toward management - they are the ones on the opposite side of the table in negotiations.

Scoop