Originally Posted by FL370 (Post 1598941)

Door pay could be really important down the road. The FARs haven't changed, operators abilty to monitor forward movement under own power has. It started with the 777 and the EMB-145. All new [certified] airplanes since have been installed with wheel speed sensors [that can be recorded via the AirInc 429 bus.] This is not NEW - my previous carrier tried to do this is in 2003/04 but we stopped them with door pay and protections of recorded data.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1598964)

So the 787 is nearing certification.


I mean A350. The 787 is being certified as it goes.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1599125)

Where is this wheel pay rumor coming from? I talked to a rep and he has heard nothing. The FAR's state flight time is logged from the first movement of the aircraft under its own power with intent for flight. It starts at pushback. The contract says the exact same thing as far as how we get paid. Is this another version of forum hysteria that seems so common?

Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 1599127)

The FAR Chapter 1 definition of "Flight Time" includes the bolded piece. FWIW.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1598810)

Wheel spin up on scale is a thousand times more of a concession than zero recovery. Also, there is a huge difference between an innocent line holder being victimized by a cruel and unusual recovery reroute as opposed to a buddy bidding tripple dipper. Huge difference. Some guys benefitted from trip parking too, why not bring that back? Wouldn't that help unstovepipe the list, etc?

I'm all in favor of numerous and very strong protections for any potential OE recovery. I just don't see the current system surviving the next big round or two of bargaining. It would be one thing if we were back to the glory days of Cadillac per month pay and 6 weeks of touch drop and all that, but those days are gone and some of that is never coming back. The entire seniority list, lineholder and reserve, narrow and wide body alike, endures shortcomings to not only pay but work rules and rigs that can, by far, be better applied more equitably than by creating a small number of windfall micro empires that laywer trick the system into getting the entire month off or working a regular schedule for triple pay as a result of intentionally trying to get it (no victim abrogation necesary).

A lot will depend on the 117 concessions. Right now we have nothing on day one prior to noon for reserves. That is a huge QOL issue for locals and for commuters (most of the pilot group) it is a critical enhancement that must not be bargained away to return to the rediculous days of "last day off schedule check" and commuting the afternoon of your last "golden day" every time, etc. Also long call is an issue. Right now its essentially de facto 19 hours, plus the huge force multiplier of the 3 hours notification issue. Obviously that last part will be bargained away, but what will LC end up being? Back to 12 will be a massive concession. Will we throw reserves under the bus for something as nebulous with unintended consequences as door pay?

In addition to shafting reserves that could end up being a massive productivity gift to the company as every single flight in the system magically becomes 5-10 minutes less. Put that in your staffing formula and see what it comes up to, not even including the instant reductions of required reserves across the board for fewer illegalities and more staffing flexibility for the company to build more reliable 8-9 hour unaugmented block days with lower risk.

We could be on the verge of huge concessions, yet some people would rather eat those than lose the windfall of 2 or 3 guys per category who can buddy bid the entire month off as if that were some necessary entitlement for pilot QOL. I disagree and depending on where other things go with these negotiations, that low hanging fruit will probably fall off the tree on its own anyway.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1599125)

Where is this wheel pay rumor coming from? I talked to a rep and he has heard nothing. The FAR's state flight time is logged from the first movement of the aircraft with intent for flight. It starts at pushback. The contract says the exact same thing as far as how we get paid. Is this another version of forum hysteria that seems so common?