That's their job. That's what they signed up for. You fly for UPS/FedEx and you're going to be doing a lot of back side of the clock flying, at least while you're junior. Some people can do that and make it work. Others can't. I never applied to those companies for that exact reason. I know it wouldn't work for me. That's why I stayed on the 88 as an F/O when I could have held the 757/767 or 738. I'd rather have a root canal than do a redeye or CDO. But that's just me. I fully realize that some folks can handle this... IF they get the necessary sleep during the day.

Here's the problem with CDO's. (And, yes, I DO think they should be prohibited by FAR.) The whole reason why guys bid those is so they can be home all day, every day... get things done, spend time with the family, make more money, etc. The reality of it is the only sleep they are going to get is whatever sleep they get at the hotel in between flights. The FAA has identified 8 hours as being the amount of sleep needed for most people to be well rested. That's consistent with the widely accepted sleep science and it's the whole reason they put it in the FAR as part of the 10 hour minimum layover. CDO's will NOT provide anywhere near that amount of sleep for anyone. Therefore, I believe... no matter how much you try to rationalize it because you want to fly less and be home more, make more money, whatever... the reality is that you WILL be fatigued for that morning flight home after getting just a few short hours of sleep. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. I wouldn't put my family on a flight with pilots that are flying the morning flight on the tail end of a CDO. When I was commuting, I've passed on RJ flights and taken a later flight for that exact reason.


Do I really have to spell that out for you? Okay... I should have said it's a way to get around the INTENT of the FAR, not the actual FAR. I thought that was pretty obvious but hopefully you understand what I am saying now. CDO's are a way for airlines to get around the intent of the FAR mandated rest requirements. A loophole that has been exploited and IMO needed to be CLOSED years ago.

Again, I don't care whether it's technically "legal" or not. I cannot and will not sign a release for that morning flight after only getting a few hours (way less than 8) of sleep. I can't believe we are even discussing this at Delta Air Lines!

 

Unless it reclines at least 40 degrees and has a footrest, the BE seat wouldn't even qualify as a Class 3 rest facility. That would mean no point in augmenting. Or are we talking lie-flat seats?

 

Oh, I'm sure it'll happen. The "dinner and a movie's" on the 737 that go so senior aren't going anywhere, though.

Where you see a 757ER or 767ER on something 100% of the time is the place you are most likely see this utilized. Possibly some transcon turns, or I believe there is some island flying out of Japan that it may be applicable for.

I'm not thrilled about allowing it, and that's why I asked questions to get clarification on the scope of it.

 

Is it class 3 or better in this agreement? I know it's CROT approved only, but the level of my knowledge on a CROT approved rest seat is somewhat limited. The main crux of that my rep said is that it has to be a CROT approved seat.

It's a lot of effort to do domestic turns on those things to just to save 2 hotel rooms in LAX or SFO. The 777 going to LAX goes on to SYD and it wouldn't work... 330 turns are one offs.

The only consistent place we'd see it would be 767ER or 757ER transcon turns and some intra-asia flying where there is currently crazy long layovers.

 

Thank You!

I wrote something similar but lost everything I wrote due to being interrupted by the wife (not the kind of interruption desired btw)!

I was responding to Alan Shore as well. You hit the nail on the head 88. My experience has been the guys/gals who bid these want to maximize time at home and forgo the rest. The only rest they usually receive is the nap of the CDO. Time at home is the normal rat race of normal life or they have a business or other busy obligations. Again this was my experience in the past and I as well can't believe they are legal.

Red eyes are much different in that the rest is usually away from home either front, middle or back end. Long international usually is 3-man and what isn't is few and far in between. Opening this can of worms will affect all domestic categories. Much more of our flying will be affected. Never thought I would see this day here a the big D.

 

So which is it -- you'll never get the rest you need during the day so flying at night is always unsafe in the end, or it's OK as long as you knew you'd be doing it when you applied for the job?

You can't have it both ways.

I do understand what you're saying -- I'm disagreeing with you. CDO's were analyzed under the same scientific process as the rest of the FARs. Whoever designed and ran these studies determined that extended WOCL flying could be done safely if an appropriate sleep opportunity was provided during the duty period, a limit was placed on consecutive CDO's, and normal rest was provided between them.

 

Need details. 13 hours? Not impressed. No work on first day of reserve before 10. It's noon right now. Illegals. No thanks. 3 pilots where we are using two crews. Doesn't that equal fewer pilots. No thanks.

 

"Improves earliest trip report/short call to 10 hours after start of first on-call day."

So if LC is going to 13 hours, how is it they could give you a trip starting at 1000 on your first day? Are we back to checking schedules again during our last off day?

NO vote here for the same reasons as SFWB, though I doubt I'll get one. Details be damned, I've seen enough from the Chairman's e-mail to see that this one's a turd.

 

Try again. I think I explained it pretty well and that doesn't even begin to address it. You're either not comprehending what I wrote or your logic is faulty.


They were making the assumption that guys were going to sleep during the day in preparation for this. This wreaks of a committee comprised of people who don't really understand what happens with these CDO's in the real world. Are you seriously telling me that you think it's safe for someone to conduct a flight after only getting 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period? Do you actually fly the line?

 

Agreed. You said it's OK for a UPS or FedEx pilot to fly all night because it's what he signed up for. You then went on to say that guys who bid CDO's do so intending to stay up all day. Are these pilots somehow less responsible than the UPS/FedEx guys to fly all night without time in a hotel room?

Presumably so. IOW, they assumed that a professional pilot will do what he needs to do to be rested and fit for duty when he reports.

Certainly not, and yes I do. My trips consist primarily of 3-man Europe. I assume that the guys with whom I fly did what they needed to do during the day to be prepared to fly. Are you saying that the FAA should have assumed that they choose to get up early with the kids, mow the lawn and work in the shop all day, and then report to fly all night?