Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-29-2014, 05:22 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Oberon
Why is displacing better than early retirements? Serious question.
Re-run reel 'A' Mr Projectionist.
08-29-2014, 05:24 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by scambo1
Because my reps don't think there's enough time to impeach Moak before he is gone anyway.
08-29-2014, 05:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by tsquare
These "early out" programs are nothing but crap to appease the troops. There will be no significant number of pilots that leave because of any program. The ones that do will only be leaving a month or two early anyway. Been there, seen this, got several expensive T shirts to prove it. We'll pay a lot for a Yugo. There should be no negotiations on this. If it is a good deal, the company would just offer it. What is there to negotiate? They want to mitigate a flush of training supposedly, right? What is there for us to do that could help in this arena? No... we are gonna pay something, and whatever it is, it's too much.
Why don't our reps get this? Seems the NC is just jonesing and needs a fix. Just say NO! and step away.
08-29-2014, 05:30 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by tsquare
So you're saying that they are offering it to select pilots on select 4 engine airplanes? Hell no. Sorry. That's wrong. Displace 'em, and train 'em.
08-29-2014, 05:39 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: retired
Posts: 560
Is the fence still up for this AE ?
08-29-2014, 05:40 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by tsquare
I don't understand. Some of you people have been complaining about Moak for a long time. If I knew how to do it I would go back and quote some posts about how he should be impeached for A,B and C. Yet it was all apparently internet bloviating. Or was it? Now since someone says all these things are true, it makes me wonder why those proceedings were never initiated. Instead, it was more "effective" to go out and attempt to burn down the house, instead of removing the rats. Caplinger's motives are becoming a lot more clearer with this.....
As with all history, the reality was very nuanced. Most of what Lee Moak did served us well. Overall, our profession is in much better shape than when he first took office.
Lee Moak has a tremendously effective political machine; smart, loyal, they are disciplined. I do not know where the decision making core is, but once the decision is made execution is done so quickly and quietly that by the time we here pick up on it, "the deal is all done but the shoutin'. " I respect the machine and nearly to a person, they are good folks. They know how to work together.
Reformists can not take the machine head on and survive, politically. We are too fragmented, too independent, we lack the homogeneity of the Moak machine. The current reality is that a reform minded person must get themselves elected then try to remain relevant so as to influence the end result. A few Reps blow up on occasion, but do they win the issues? I can't think of a time the "blaze of glory" approach worked.
As for the DPA, it was never about fixing ALPA. Decertification campaigns are designed to replace the union, not fix it. Worse, the DPA had no real interest in fact, or historical accuracy; they just wanted mud to throw at ALPA. Since the mud wasn't real, it did not stick. Emotions waned in a season.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-29-2014 at 05:51 AM.
08-29-2014, 05:45 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
^^^^^^^SHACK!!!!^^^^^^
Why don't our reps get this? Seems the NC is just jonesing and needs a fix. Just say NO! and step away.
Why don't our reps get this? Seems the NC is just jonesing and needs a fix. Just say NO! and step away.
08-29-2014, 05:50 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by tsquare
I dunno. What's your point? Mine is that there will be no mass exodus of anybody. So if you selectively offer it to certain groups that have retirements and on top of that we have to pay for it... yeah, I'll be pizzed if we pay ANYTHING for this "privelege".
Scenario: The company says we want to get rid of the whales, but they do not make up the most senior guys on the list. We don't want to train them. How do we incentivize those guys to leave? Early retirement plan. OK. But they are not by and large more senior than the 777 guys. So if we offer it to the most senior guys on the list, the 777 guys might leave generating more training. We don't want that. So we'll buy you a few more 330s. How's that? You mean the ones that you really need, and that you are gonna announce in a couple of months anyway? For that, you get to offer retirement to a select bunch of guys? Why are we even having this discussion? If I were a 63 year old 777 pilot, I would be livid.
Scenario: The company says we want to get rid of the whales, but they do not make up the most senior guys on the list. We don't want to train them. How do we incentivize those guys to leave? Early retirement plan. OK. But they are not by and large more senior than the 777 guys. So if we offer it to the most senior guys on the list, the 777 guys might leave generating more training. We don't want that. So we'll buy you a few more 330s. How's that? You mean the ones that you really need, and that you are gonna announce in a couple of months anyway? For that, you get to offer retirement to a select bunch of guys? Why are we even having this discussion? If I were a 63 year old 777 pilot, I would be livid.
Wouldn't this yet again be compensation targeting one pre merger group and not the other?
As a very junior guy all of this is happening in the clouds over Mount Olympus from my view ... but you are right about the 777 driver (or even 737 driver, damn that thing is senior for no obvious reason).
08-29-2014, 05:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,815
Is there anything in the PWA that prevents targeted early-retirement programs?
08-29-2014, 06:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by tsquare
My point though is that if the company needs this, then we should get something out of it. And not just the 747 guys. It is not worth anything to you and me to not have them displaced. No. Why? Because the guys they are gonna offer this to are probably 63+. So they can leave at any time they want with more retirement than any of the rest of us will see. But yet they somehow need to be incentivized. Why? Time marches on. By the time they are actually looking at going out the door, I'll betcha the vast majority will be 64 anyway. What if they get displaced and have to go to training? So what. They will be gone in a year or two anyway. It costs the company money to displace and train them. The company needs this, you and I do not. But if the company/MEC is going to sweeten the pot for them, they damned well better sweeten it for me and you.
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