Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,933
You should pay more attention. I heard a rumor about CDO's being negotiated a month ago. I didn't believe it. A few weeks ago I heard it from 2 different reliable sources. Once I believed it, I posted on here to only get insulted and laughed at.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
Posts: 1,410
The 5:15 is a huge deal. I'm really really happy with that, and I think many are understating how big it is... however...
I'm afraid the CDOs are too unrestricted to be of the beneficial value needed. A few should be fine at the pay they are offering and would mitigate the jacked up trips we get with the 117 stuff. However, I believe it is likely too unrestricted in the TA from what I've read thus far.
I'm on the fence and trending toward sending it through another time to clean up the CDO stuff.
I'm afraid the CDOs are too unrestricted to be of the beneficial value needed. A few should be fine at the pay they are offering and would mitigate the jacked up trips we get with the 117 stuff. However, I believe it is likely too unrestricted in the TA from what I've read thus far.
I'm on the fence and trending toward sending it through another time to clean up the CDO stuff.
The rumors were about as reliable as the 4/8/3/3 rumors a few years back .... oh, wait ...
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Look for a political sideshow to develop, where people try to decline ownership, or work both sides of the game. Typical crap. But it's not that important. The issue, if you will, is that the reps did not get any structured input (i.e. surveys) on SDP's/CDO's. So how did we get here?
Well, to my surprise, there is a pro-CDO segment among us, and there is some logic to it. C20 even brought a resolution to the MEC requiring them to negotiate them back in, in 2010, to make the trips more efficient.
While I have never heard anyone ask for CDO's, I certainly have heard from most people that they want more efficient trips. If you think about it, many guys dislike sitting 30 hours in GRR, but the company isn't building those rotations with a couple hours of credit because they want to; they're building 30-hour layovers because they have to, especially under 117. Imagine the leverage it would take to get 5:15 ADG applied to an entire day of doing nothing. This is why the conversation turned to SDP's/CDO's. It was a collective hug between every pilot wanting better trips, the sub-group that actually likes CDO's, and the company that's willing to pay a higher ADG, but not a free day on these rotations.
If you see that 30-hour layovers are essentially the piece of the puzzle stopping an increase in ADG, and you also understand that those exist precisely because the company cannot schedule these trips more efficiently (otherwise they would), then you can see how SDP's came into the picture, with the knowledge and consent of the MEC.
Now we have to ask, if the MEC tasks the Negotiators to go get "A, B, and C" and the NC brings them "A, B, and C" in an agreement, wouldn't a yes vote be a given?
This is why MEMRAT is a must. I'm OK with not giving my consent on the front-end of a negotiation, but I must be given the right to endorse the end result. It's very simple.
What must be understood is that the deal might very well be satisfactory to the group. There may be a much larger contingent that want them, or is willing to see them as the price for a higher ADG . But there is also a strange confluence of opinions against SDP's, even between people as different as Carl, 88 Driver, Tsquare, PG, and myself. Carl will never fly one, but he's probably interested in the politics. 88 Driver and I will most likely fly them. I don't know about him, but they would be horrible for me. I can't safely do one, plus the drive home. I'd have to get a hotel each time, and destroy my sleep cycle, and time with the family. I don't ever want to fly them, and I don't really want others to be forced to fly them.
Guys who live really close-in, and guys who have a crashpad actually might be all over a string of SDP's. Imagine a really late sign-in, where you nap on the commute, and nap at your crashpad between consecutive SDP's. Nap on your (very early) commute home. Super-efficient, and if your sleep habits are compatible, potentially safe.
Since we haven't been given a chance to debate this, we now should determine, as a group, whether we think this TA is worth it. I'm not pre-judging the will of the pilot group, but I want to vote on this important TA. What's more basic and fair than letting me (and you) have that option?
As far as paying attention, I guessed I missed the Vectors or whatever distribution method was used for my reps to relay this to me. Very disappointed.
Well, to my surprise, there is a sizeable pro-CDO segment among us, and there is some logic to it. C20 even brought a resolution to the MEC requiring them to negotiate them back in, in 2010, to make the trips more efficient.
While I have never heard anyone ask for CDO's, I certainly have heard from most people that they want more efficient trips. If you think about it, many guys dislike sitting 30 hours in GRR, but the company isn't building those rotations with a couple hours of credit because they want to; they're building 30-hour layovers because they have to, especially under 117. Imagine the leverage it would take to get 5:15 ADG applied to an entire day of doing nothing. This is why the conversation turned to SDP's/CDO's. It was a collective hug between every pilot wanting better trips, the sub-group that actually likes CDO's, and the company that's willing to pay a higher ADG, but not a free day on these rotations.
While I have never heard anyone ask for CDO's, I certainly have heard from most people that they want more efficient trips. If you think about it, many guys dislike sitting 30 hours in GRR, but the company isn't building those rotations with a couple hours of credit because they want to; they're building 30-hour layovers because they have to, especially under 117. Imagine the leverage it would take to get 5:15 ADG applied to an entire day of doing nothing. This is why the conversation turned to SDP's/CDO's. It was a collective hug between every pilot wanting better trips, the sub-group that actually likes CDO's, and the company that's willing to pay a higher ADG, but not a free day on these rotations.
How about a "hey, if you want no 30 hr layover, SDPs are the solution." Then the pilot group could have a discussion about whether it's a good idea or not. Now, how it's going to be presented is "we traded 5:15 ADG for SDP - ADG affects the whole pilot group while SDP are just a small subset of trips, and most people won't them anyway."
I just think that SDP are a bad idea, fatiguing and while legal, far from safe. It's enough that I think the TA should be shot down and we can all discuss it in Sec 6.
Yeah, rotations have changed and it will be hard to make them better.
The 5:15 ADG will help alleviate that considerably.
I expect a lot too out of Section 6, and I'd rather use the gains here as a higher baseline to start those talks:
The 5:15 ADG will help alleviate that considerably.
I expect a lot too out of Section 6, and I'd rather use the gains here as a higher baseline to start those talks:
- ADG to 5:15 is equivalent to $40 million (which is roughly 2% on the pay tables in value)
$40 million is chump change. The dividend increase alone is way more than that, and that doesn't even address the $2Billion share repurchase. You are biting on a rotten peach my friend.
- Good. But I'll bet all those rotations will change.
- We are hiring 50/month for forever. This is minutae that will get lost in the fog. NOBODY, especially the company, will even notice this. It is a ridiculous selling point
- This is better than noon? How is that again? Commuters take it in the shorts yet again.
I want this stuff now, and I don't want to use our leverage next spring to "re-buy" it. I want ALL the negotiating leverage to be used on more and even better stuff... Like lots and lots of $$$$$$.
Heck, we can "try" SDP's for 6 months and if we don't like them or want changes we have a built-in window to do fix it.
Heck, we can "try" SDP's for 6 months and if we don't like them or want changes we have a built-in window to do fix it.
The bigger issue is that this is going to be such a lightning rod that if it DOESN'T go to memory rat, the doughnut holes are gonna get another shot in the arm. It is MORONIC beyond comprehension to force this without it.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,933
You're post was the first I saw it. When you were laughed at, I felt relief that I wasn't the only who thought NO F'N WAY. Well it's now a real possibility.
As far as paying attention, I guessed I missed the Vectors or whatever distribution method was used for my reps to relay this to me. Very disappointed.
As far as paying attention, I guessed I missed the Vectors or whatever distribution method was used for my reps to relay this to me. Very disappointed.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Posts: 852
I've done several months worth of CDOs at Compass. They sucked then, and I say that as someone who flew them in his 20s, who is a night owl and has always been able to sleep on command. I found myself flying into MSP a few times with the sun coming up and me slapping myself to stay awake, praying to God that the weather and mx stayed ok. The CAs I flew them with, and the FOs I flew them with after I upgraded, were either too junior to hold anything else, or had kids or businesses on the side that took up their time during the day. One of them would later die in a road accident the day after a string of CDOs; it's believed he fell asleep at the wheel.
You're post was the first I saw it. When you were laughed at, I felt relief that I wasn't the only who thought NO F'N WAY. Well it's now a real possibility.
As far as paying attention, I guessed I missed the Vectors or whatever distribution method was used for my reps to relay this to me. Very disappointed.
As far as paying attention, I guessed I missed the Vectors or whatever distribution method was used for my reps to relay this to me. Very disappointed.
If the TA said the company wants "stand ups" in return for 5:15 a day, the majority of South guys would say "NO F'IN WAY"!!
The MEC should have at least told us what was in the works so those without inside Intel could offer our perspective.
Shoving this down our throats is a huge mistake!
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