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Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1659748)
I have NEVER said we cannot succeed. I even answered your standard question with a "no". But not surprisingly, that was apparently lost on you. I am only saying that you need to make a good case for it other than saying "because we deserve it". Your turn...
A billboard is far in the future. Baby steps. Right now we need a letter from the MEC to Richard. A professional, polite and sincere letter congratulating our management on their leadership and $2.75 billion in a second round of returns to the shareholders. Going on to remind him the the largest contributor by many billions to Delta's success today were the Delta pilots. Taking the position that a minority portion of that $2.75 billion needs to go to snapping up the hourly pay rates of the Delta pilots to the May 2004 levels with no accounting for inflation. This letter accomplishes many things. First and foremost, it rallies the line pilots and the MEC attains the unity MD seeks in an instant. Further, it educates all stakeholders that the Delta pilots hourly pay rates are far below what they were over a decade ago. Finally, it puts us on Richard's plate. Regardless of his response, the wheel begins to squeak and we will know where we stand. If he rejects our position, the analysts will be watching. Richard does not want discord. He touts our relationship at every opportunity. Our position is more than fair give the level of our life changing concessions. How's that SAN hotel change working for us? No one wants a perfect relationship more than I but the scales are far out of balance. Our concessions are no longer needed by any measure in the world. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1659738)
I thought about highlighting doughnut talking points, but decided against it. Some of your points though, have some validity. Here's your challenge: Make a business case to support those points. Convince me to believe that it is in the company's best interest to give us raises and benefits that will be out of line with the rest of the industry in which we compete. No emotional rhetoric like "white flag waving" and "Delta pilots gave disproportionately" or any of that. Our contract as a whole is better than any other group out there. Non emotional business case as to why it should be disproportionately better.
And before you start in on me as being an apologist or surrender monkey or some other horse****, I am only asking you for a dispassionate business case. I am not rendering judgment one way or the other. Stating goals is fine, and if it makes you and gszg feel better, I'll even chip in for the ad in the NYT. I think it is a waste of money and effort, but if that will quell your passion for a mission statement, I'll get on board. But you then have to tell me how to achieve those goals other than just yelling "because we deserve it". Deal? Let me start by putting a different angle on the "a good poker player never shows his hand" meme. A good poker player gives every indication they have a winning hand and executes in a confident manner. How do we do that as a union? We state our goals and execute a strategy. More on that later. It's clear the company is so flush with cash right now they are putting money not only on "need" projects but also "want" projects that were previously far down the list. If the company didn't declare dividends, weren't buying back stock and spending money on a dozen other pet projects the net profit for 2014 could be 5 Billion. The money is there. We have established that. Now back to the goals and strategy. I know from your earlier comments you don't believe labor unrest (picketing, discussing with the media specifics about how management is making more now than pre 911 vs the pilot group, etc) would do any good. You do not believe even the threat of that would have any effect on leverage or increase the chances of achieving restoration. I disagree. A few things that come up in every investor conference. 1. Amazing labor relations 2. Getting rid of 50 seaters saved a ton of money 3. Virtual mergers with airlines all over the globe allow milk without buying the cow and hence we reduced our international flying from 2012 to the present. 4. One of the most productive airlines in the business. A sophisticated thinker has to look at the information put out by the company to investors vs what the company puts out to employees or the government when they (Delta) want something. Look at their current campaign to remove government taxes from advertised prices and how they spin that as a benefit to consumers. But I digress. The union needs to be willing to go out of their comfort zone. To do things differently. The union needs to quit propagating it's (the company's) talking points/disinformation and go directly to the pilots, educating them on how much money it will really take to restore compensation/work rules back to previous highs with interest factored in. A robust campaign to show where we are coming up short and get all pilots on deck with an informational campaign. Put a vote out on a pre contract that shows 97% of the pilots are behind the GOAL and ready to fight to achieve it. This is at the root of our leverage. Management types on this message board will disagree. They have an agenda to dissuade this type of thinking. Maybe the NMB will work with us maybe they wont. If the company sees this kind of solidarity and weigh it alongside their stated goals (which would still be achievable) vs a prolonged negative public battle with the pilots, I do believe they would step up and be much more willing to make the pilots whole. You can say no it won't. We wont know if we can get more than cost of living and cost neutral contracts until we try something different. We must try something different. This has nothing to do with DPA. This has to do with DALPA stepping up putting the company on notice that cozy, lopsided constructive engagement is going to change. It's time to stand up and be counted. We are investors in the company. Our dividends are due. |
You guys need to write a book.
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"Labor risk, we have a very, very strong partnership with all of our employee groups."
"Combining that with the productivity and probably the single biggest initiative we have on the cash front, on the CASM front is the 50-seat reduction or the upgauging in the airline." "We don't expect to be at a run rate benefit of optimal 50-seaters in the system until the end of 2015. So this is going to be a sizeable benefit for us and help lend to the confidence that we have in our ability to hit these types of cost goals for the foreseeable future and contribute to additional margin expansion going forward." "We would be creation of a global carrier. We’ve really diversified globally the footprint, both with the network, but also the sources of revenue." "And then when you combine that with the immunized joint ventures which effectively become very similar to mergers in terms of how we can cooperate without any trust community on capacity, you get to a much more disciplined global framework similar to the some of the consolidation that you’ve seen in the U.S. which has really, really helped to derisk some of that revenue volatility that we’ve seen over time and better able to position the airline to respond to demand shots like we saw in 2009, 2001 etcetera." |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1659747)
I've flown with a number of managers, and very specifically told them I didn't believe in the 717 plan B carrot. Mgmt is too financially smart to throw all that money into re-engining the 50 seaters and pass up on the 717 deal. It just didn't make sense.
It was admitted that the 717s were coming with or without C2012, and "plan B" was just to draw out negotiations. |
Regarding contracts I just wish our company and our union thought of us as akin to Aaron Rodgers instead of Mark Sanchez.
One of them has brought the team success, http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2011/wri...on-rodgers.jpg ($22,000,000 Avg pay/yr) The other...disappointment. http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpres...sanchez211.gif ($2,250,000 Avg pay/yr) OK, maybe we're not quite Mark Sanchez, but to hear some tell it that's about the best we can expect or deserve. |
Originally Posted by EdGrimley
(Post 1659788)
T, I respect your viewpoint although I disagree with publicly stating over and over again we have no leverage. It plays right into managements hands.
Let me start by putting a different angle on the "a good poker player never shows his hand" meme. A good poker player gives every indication they have a winning hand and executes in a confident manner. How do we do that as a union? We state our goals and execute a strategy. More on that later. It's clear the company is so flush with cash right now they are putting money not only on "need" projects but also "want" projects that were previously far down the list. If the company didn't declare dividends, weren't buying back stock and spending money on a dozen other pet projects the net profit for 2014 could be 5 Billion. The money is there. We have established that. Now back to the goals and strategy. I know from your earlier comments you don't believe labor unrest (picketing, discussing with the media specifics about how management is making more now than pre 911 vs the pilot group, etc) would do any good. You do not believe even the threat of that would have any effect on leverage or increase the chances of achieving restoration. I disagree. A few things that come up in every investor conference. 1. Amazing labor relations 2. Getting rid of 50 seaters saved a ton of money 3. Virtual mergers with airlines all over the globe allow milk without buying the cow and hence we reduced our international flying from 2012 to the present. 4. One of the most productive airlines in the business. A sophisticated thinker has to look at the information put out by the company to investors vs what the company puts out to employees or the government when they (Delta) want something. Look at their current campaign to remove government taxes from advertised prices and how they spin that as a benefit to consumers. But I digress. The union needs to be willing to go out of their comfort zone. To do things differently. The union needs to quite propagating it's (the company's) talking points/disinformation and go directly to the pilots, educating them on how much money it will really take to restore compensation/work rules back to previous highs with interest factored in. A robust campaign to show where we are coming up short and get all pilots on deck with an informational campaign. Put a vote out on a pre contract that shows 97% of the pilots are behind the GOAL and ready to fight to achieve it. This is at the root of our leverage. Management types on this message board will disagree. They have an agenda to dissuade this type of thinking. Maybe the NMB will work with us maybe they wont. If the company sees this kind of solidarity and weigh it alongside their stated goals (which would still be achievable) vs a prolonged negative public battle with the pilots, I do believe they would step up and be much more willing to make the pilots whole. You can say no it won't. We wont know if we can get more than cost of living and cost neutral contracts until we try something different. We must try something different. This has nothing to do with DPA. This has to do with DALPA stepping up putting the company on notice that cozy, yet lopsided constructive engagement that has proved primarily constructive to one side is going to change. It's time to stand up and be counted. We are investors in the company. Our dividends are due. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1659808)
I am not saying that we don't have any leverage. Well, I am saying that at this particular point in time, it is limited, but you know that. You talk about a "long protracted battle with pilots". When could that start? Today? Tomorrow? Next week? I think that is when our perception of leverage differs. Personally, and this is not "managing expectation", I think it would be pretty futile to go out and start a FUPM campaign right now because our contract isn't even amendable for another year and a half, but maybe you can convince me otherwise. Like gzsg says... baby steps. But let's say that I misunderstand what it is that you are looking for at this point in time. A goal statement? Is that it? Or are you ready to go nuclear tomorrow? I think that you have to "manage" the pilots fervor wrt (for lack of a better word) anger over current conditions. You and gzsg are perpetually angry over what you perceive as our lot wrt the current state of the company. I get that. I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it. So how do you rally the troops to follow your lead? There are a ton of guys out there that won't give a rat's tail about this until it comes time to negotiate the contract, and that isn't for awhile. Which then leads me to think you believe we can negotiate a brand spanking new contract, right now, based solely on the company's most recent quarterly statements. Again, I challenge you to make the business case for that.`Remember, our contract is much better than any one else's in the industry as a whole. So make the case other than community organizing. Hopey Changey sucks as a strategy.
Why no leadership? Is that so much to ask? Are our concessions still necessary? Is it wrong to take a stand for our sacrifices? Just a tiny step. |
Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
(Post 1659804)
Regarding contracts I just wish our company and our union thought of us as akin to Aaron Rodgers instead of Mark Sanchez.
One of them has brought the team success, http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2011/wri...on-rodgers.jpg ($22,000,000 Avg pay/yr) The other...disappointment. http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpres...sanchez211.gif ($2,250,000 Avg pay/yr) OK, maybe we're not quite Mark Sanchez, but to hear some tell it that's about the best we can expect or deserve. Aren't we getting overly dramatic now? :rolleyes: I do admit though, Sanchez was overrated from the get go, but what USC QB of late hasn't been? |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1659764)
Wow. The usual suspects are out in force managing expectations downward.
What's the occasion? |
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