That point has validity up to a point, and we all now that. When it comes right down to it, we will go out there and do the job. We always have, and it won't change much.... for awhile. There will be rumblings here and there, but the vast majority of guys will still fill their lunchbox and go to work. But there might come a time when we are "fed up with it". Maybe ya'll are talking about that time, and I don't disagree about that... when we get there. But right now... today.. we are not even close. I'm still trying to talk about today. gszg is unhappy and wants a statement made telling Mr Anderson that we expect our sacrifices to be recognized and rewarded. I don't disagree with the idea per se, I just think at this juncture it is a waste of time. He and Ed want to whip the pilots into a frenzy and sustain that frenzy until negotiations begin in earnest. Again... imho.. a waste of time because between now and then we have the rest of summer and then football season. And THAT doesn't get us to exchange of openers. The vast majority.. or more importantly 62% will not remain all that interested until we actually get down to cutting bait or wetting worms. And a few malcontents will not affect the stock price. jmho.

I didn't say anything about going in as 11,000 individuals. I was speaking specifically about seeing any survey results. A survey IS important to get the pulse of the group as a whole. But then, as Mr Spock said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.." Once a TA is reached, the survey is unimportant, because we (theoretically) trust the negotiators to get us the best deal they can based on all the information they have available.. and here's the hard part... all the while trying to satisfy the "needs of the many" to the biggest extent possible. When I then have to evaluate the TA, why do I need to see a survey in order to judge whether or not it satisfies what I wanted to get on the contract? I don't. Because I do not care what YOU or NewK or Timbo want on the contract, because your needs and desires are different from mine. I will evaluate the contract based on what is before me and how it satisfies my wants/needs. Why do you care what I wanted anyway? I know many disagree, but there really is no upside in releasing survey results at that point. It only becomes a rallying point for future doughnuts with an agenda to overthrow our representatives and we are back at square one, and what is really sad about that is that is is but a snapshot of the entire process. It is discouraging to me because some think so little of those that are putting in the time and working on our behalf, and that will most importantly live under the contract that they negotiated that they then want to back a truck over them. Depressing really.... I have known Heiko since DEX days, and he is a good man. Logical in his thoughts and dedicated to the group. He's a gator, but I'll overlook that and give him my fullest support anyway, but I wouldn't want to do what he has to do, and put up with the constant sniping that he has to endure when he has nothing but the best interests of everybody here at heart.

sorry for the rant

Delta is the hot play right now because we are several years ahead of everybody else in the industry. AAL will be a formidable competitor when their merger is complete because they have a very strong network. UAL, would be awesome if their management wasn't living in the 70s. They are a mess now, and probably will stay in stick shaker for quite some time. But their network is far superior to ours in Asia. (They have way too many big airplanes though) The one thing that is really helping our cause there is Smisek... one of THE worst CEOs in the country. The one I really don't get is SWA. Their growth potential is done, (they are losing 88 717s and have minimal 737s on order) the merger integration is a train wreck but their stock hits new highs almost daily. Nothing about that company is exceptional right now yet people still buy it. I'd short the hell out of it if I weren't afraid of losing my arse, because it's GOT to crash sometime....

Your last point is well taken, and I don't disagree. I truly believe we will get substantial gains in C15. But we cannot ignore what the other airlines are doing. It just doesn't work that way. UAL/AAL/SWA have got to raise the bar in some areas. We cannot go alone each and every contract patterning against ourselves. Don't you get tired of having everybody else benefit by what WE do? I still want to be the premier group, but it's time for somebody else to at least do SOMETHING.

You are partially right. My goal has been all along to be a member of the investing class. TVM is real, the greatest invention ever is that of compound interest, all those inconvenient truths that some choose to ignore when looking strictly at short term paychecks. You nailed me on that count, and nothing you can ever say will change that about me. What I find a bit disconcerting is that you , as a senior 747 captain, at the very top of the food chain still want to act like you are standing around a 55 gallon oil drum burning pallets to stay warm. It's great that you walk the walk regarding unity (with the exception of the DPA bullchit). It really is. But financially, if you are not clipping coupons right now, it is because you blew it all, and no amount of pay increase going forward will help that. It's just math.

And how dare you ever accuse me of not wanting what's best for this pilot group. If it comes down to a strike vote, contrary to what you have publicly stated, I will walk the walk with my brothers. Even you. Your problem is that you want to go nuclear before you even hear a gunshot. I think you even relish that concept. You hate dALPA because they do things differently than you are used to. You feel it ineffective because you don't see management with a bloody nose and you feel that a necessary by product of successful labor relations. Sad really. Show me a better contract in the industry right now. Any one. I'll wait. And then let's look at the relationships that their pilots have with their management. It has nothing to do with trickle down economics or anything like that Carl.. it's all about timing. Look at your watch. It ain't time yet.

Ummmm don't you KNOW your own opinion? I know mine. I don't care about yours, because it's different than mine. What if the group as a whole believed that all 747 captains are paid about right and that resulted in your pay staying right where it is? Do you care? Why would you? Would you be happy about a massive paycut on the next contract because the group realized that a M88 FO works far harder than you and should receive a bigger pay increase than Carl? Really? I think not.

If they release survey results, fine. Whatever. It serves no useful purpose, but if it makes Carl happy, by all means we should release it. I need something to keep the oil off my garage floor anyway.

Quoted so we had the bookends of the debate next to each other.

southwest. Fed ex.


Who cares what the relationship with the company is? (Besides RA, that is.) A good relationship won't pay for my kids' braces. Feel good lovefests between RA and ALPA won't pay for your generic Viagra.

So what exactly is the "time value" of a good relationship with management?

Do you even think about what you write?

I've seen guys that bid reserve don't have a regular line bid preference in. Does anyone know if I can (not) bid a regular (full) line and instead start my bid with a Reduced lower limit bid?

I don't want reserve in July, but I don't want much of a line either. And yes, I know I could drop what I don't want after the bid, that's not the question.

probably will stay in stick shaker for quite some time. But their network is far superior to
Your last point is well taken, and I don't disagree. I truly believe we will get substantial gains in C15. But we cannot ignore what the other airlines are doing. It just doesn't work that way. UAL/AAL/SWA have got to raise the bar in some areas. We cannot go alone each and every contract patterning against ourselves. Don't you get tired of having everybody else benefit by what WE do? I still want to be the premier group, but it's time for somebody else to at least do SOMETHING.[/QUOTE]

I think it matters less and less what the other airlines are doing. This management team has consistently said we want to be viewed as a leading transport company not just an airline company. So let's use that when we demand our restoration. Management cannot say to investors we are a leading transport company and tell us in negotiation we are an average airline.
Pay up