Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-10-2014 | 07:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
From: Entitled rocket surgeon!
Guys,
The RCC survey window is open - very low participation so far. This is a good opportunity to give your input on DAL rotations.
On a separate but related issue the preliminary Nov trips (5:30 ADG effective) show a bunch of the 3 day red-eyes going out as now, but paying 15:45.
Not sure how long they will remain this way, but trips will probably slowly evolve to reduce credit.
Other 2 and 3 day trips are being increased to 4 day trips to minimize credit.
Scoop
The RCC survey window is open - very low participation so far. This is a good opportunity to give your input on DAL rotations.
On a separate but related issue the preliminary Nov trips (5:30 ADG effective) show a bunch of the 3 day red-eyes going out as now, but paying 15:45.
Not sure how long they will remain this way, but trips will probably slowly evolve to reduce credit.Other 2 and 3 day trips are being increased to 4 day trips to minimize credit.
Scoop
07-10-2014 | 07:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Not looking for sympathy.... or to be lectured by a condescending @sshole. 
I think I understand pretty well where you're coming from. You see bankruptcy as a reset for our profession. You have a fairly high level of expertise in analyzing corporate financials. You've even done some consulting. Just enough stuff so that you tend to see things from the perspective of a CFO... a bean counter.
In our case, you apparently have a lot more concern for the cost side of the business equation than you do for the value of a highly trained, highly experienced, sharp individual in the cockpit. That kind of lack of perspective and poor judgment is one of the reasons why CFO's don't always make the best CEO's. Bean counters are great at what they do... crunching numbers... an important part of the equation. Just not the WHOLE equation.
As for your "analysis" of our concessions... well... it's flawed. This isn't 2007. It's 2014. You are conveniently leaving out 6 years (2008-2014). Try including the difference between our pay in those years and what our pay would be inflation adjusted from 2004. Still think we aren't at a significant deficit? Oh that's right... you view bankruptcy as a reset. You don't think pilots can or should be paid that much in the first place. Keeping costs low is the most important priority. You're a bean counter first and foremost. And the really scary part? You're a bean counter that could be helping to determine our strategic plan for C2015!
And just to bring it back to the "real world"... none of the above diminishes the one thing on which you and I agree: There are much worse things in life that can happen than losing money.
I think I understand pretty well where you're coming from. You see bankruptcy as a reset for our profession. You have a fairly high level of expertise in analyzing corporate financials. You've even done some consulting. Just enough stuff so that you tend to see things from the perspective of a CFO... a bean counter.
In our case, you apparently have a lot more concern for the cost side of the business equation than you do for the value of a highly trained, highly experienced, sharp individual in the cockpit. That kind of lack of perspective and poor judgment is one of the reasons why CFO's don't always make the best CEO's. Bean counters are great at what they do... crunching numbers... an important part of the equation. Just not the WHOLE equation.
As for your "analysis" of our concessions... well... it's flawed. This isn't 2007. It's 2014. You are conveniently leaving out 6 years (2008-2014). Try including the difference between our pay in those years and what our pay would be inflation adjusted from 2004. Still think we aren't at a significant deficit? Oh that's right... you view bankruptcy as a reset. You don't think pilots can or should be paid that much in the first place. Keeping costs low is the most important priority. You're a bean counter first and foremost. And the really scary part? You're a bean counter that could be helping to determine our strategic plan for C2015!
And just to bring it back to the "real world"... none of the above diminishes the one thing on which you and I agree: There are much worse things in life that can happen than losing money.
I don't believe in resets and all the rest of what you wrote, because that is just propaganda. You deal in your propaganda and see if that gives me a pay raise.
07-10-2014 | 07:54 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
I don't think anybody disagrees with that. It does however seem that some on here believe that good faith only applies to one side. Not trying to start that argument, and not trying to advocate any "concessions", but good faith is not delivering an ultimatum that must be accepted because of historical events
What you do is you put together your best case for restoring our pay. There are a lot of good, rational arguments IN FAVOR of this. "Historical events" are relevant but not by any means the only aspect of the argument. This industry has been restructured in a way that should permit better, more consistent profitability going forward. Our company is making literally BILLIONS (with a "B") in profits. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Our company CAN afford to restore our pay. In fact, when you look at what is happening to our profession (in terms of being able to attract enough quality newcomers), it could be argued that our company can't afford NOT to restore our pay.
Do you think DALPA (with guys like Alfa driving things behind the scenes) is making these kinds of arguments? Nope. Not even close. All you have to do is look at their words here. That tells you everything you need to know. If they're arguing against it here, you can bet they aren't arguing FOR it with management.
07-10-2014 | 07:57 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Who said anything about ultimatums?
What you do is you put together your best case for restoring our pay. There are a lot of good, rational arguments IN FAVOR of this. "Historical events" are relevant but not by any means the only aspect of the argument. This industry has been restructured in a way that should permit better, more consistent profitability going forward. Our company is making literally BILLIONS (with a "B") in profits. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Our company CAN afford to restore our pay. In fact, when you look at what is happening to our profession (in terms of being able to attract enough quality newcomers), it could be argued that our company can't afford NOT to restore our pay.
Do you think DALPA (with guys like Alfa driving things behind the scenes) is making these kinds of arguments? Nope. Not even close. All you have to do is look at their words here. That tells you everything you need to know. If they're arguing against it here, you can bet they aren't arguing FOR it with management.
What you do is you put together your best case for restoring our pay. There are a lot of good, rational arguments IN FAVOR of this. "Historical events" are relevant but not by any means the only aspect of the argument. This industry has been restructured in a way that should permit better, more consistent profitability going forward. Our company is making literally BILLIONS (with a "B") in profits. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Our company CAN afford to restore our pay. In fact, when you look at what is happening to our profession (in terms of being able to attract enough quality newcomers), it could be argued that our company can't afford NOT to restore our pay.
Do you think DALPA (with guys like Alfa driving things behind the scenes) is making these kinds of arguments? Nope. Not even close. All you have to do is look at their words here. That tells you everything you need to know. If they're arguing against it here, you can bet they aren't arguing FOR it with management.
07-10-2014 | 07:59 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
07-10-2014 | 08:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Wow. From of all people you Alfa? Really!?! Simply astounding to me with all things considered.
In Los Angeles, there was a fantastic gentleman and aviator who served us all as a check airman. Great pilot and an even better teacher.
I had the pleasure of flying with him on the 727 and the 767. Glad I did. It was an honor.
During the throes of bankruptcy, he sadly committed suicide. A wife and kids lost a husband, best friend, and father. Forever.
It was said by those with intimate knowledge of the details that the financial strain of bankruptcy played a major role in this tragedy.
I don't think he probably saw things as "losing a little money" as you say, particularly since he was close to retirement.
It might be best to Shut the Phuque Up on this, Alfa. It's up to you, but knowing your ego, I'm not betting on it.
In Los Angeles, there was a fantastic gentleman and aviator who served us all as a check airman. Great pilot and an even better teacher.
I had the pleasure of flying with him on the 727 and the 767. Glad I did. It was an honor.
During the throes of bankruptcy, he sadly committed suicide. A wife and kids lost a husband, best friend, and father. Forever.
It was said by those with intimate knowledge of the details that the financial strain of bankruptcy played a major role in this tragedy.
I don't think he probably saw things as "losing a little money" as you say, particularly since he was close to retirement.
It might be best to Shut the Phuque Up on this, Alfa. It's up to you, but knowing your ego, I'm not betting on it.
I am sorry for his family's loss. I also faced a loss recently and it is very difficult to carry on. I had to make a conscious choice to get up and move on. I still have two children left and a wife and the rest of my family and I could not wallow in my self pity for my loss. Trust me it is not easy but that is what you have to do. Mr. DALM88Driver lost money, that is all. Get over it, pick yourself off and move forward. Or wallow in self pity until it drags you into a pit, I guess that is a choice also.
I went through the same strains as everyone else in bankruptcy. I know how difficult it was. In the same vein, facing deep loss gave me a greater appreciation about what is valuable and what is not. Money is just money. You can either replace it or do without it. I am sure that you feel bad about your friend, trust me I feel my loss every single day.
07-10-2014 | 08:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
The things you and Carl and many others post on here are simply stupid failed tactics that have no basis in reality. Everyone that does what you propose fails. If the pilot group wants to go down that path of failure, then it is their choice.
However, I don't want to go down that path. So I will try to convince people why your ideas are stupid and doomed to failure. It is so funny that people like you try as much as possible to harass and attack anyone who disagrees with your ideas. Why are you so afraid of open debate? That is the real question.
07-10-2014 | 08:07 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
I am sorry for his family's loss. I also faced a loss recently and it is very difficult to carry on. I had to make a conscious choice to get up and move on. I still have two children left and a wife and the rest of my family and I could not wallow in my self pity for my loss. Trust me it is not easy but that is what you have to do. Mr. DALM88Driver lost money, that is all. Get over it, pick yourself off and move forward. Or wallow in self pity until it drags you into a pit, I guess that is a choice also.
I went through the same strains as everyone else in bankruptcy. I know how difficult it was. In the same vein, facing deep loss gave me a greater appreciation about what is valuable and what is not. Money is just money. You can either replace it or do without it. I am sure that you feel bad about your friend, trust me I feel my loss every single day.
I went through the same strains as everyone else in bankruptcy. I know how difficult it was. In the same vein, facing deep loss gave me a greater appreciation about what is valuable and what is not. Money is just money. You can either replace it or do without it. I am sure that you feel bad about your friend, trust me I feel my loss every single day.
You fancy yourself as business savvy. When we talk contract here, we're talking business. That is the framework within which the discussion is taking place. It has nothing to do with anyone placing a higher value on money than on other more important things in life.
Perhaps a review of the following is in order here:
A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. [3] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[4][5]
This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.
07-10-2014 | 08:10 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Meh. They are still assumptions, and you do not have all the information from both sides of the equation. And guess what, I fully acknowledge that neither do I. The difference between us is that you assume that it is a one sided equation. The only statement I make is that the other side has a point too. Of course you and others always take that to mean that I accept the reset, drink the koolaid, yada yada yada.
07-10-2014 | 08:11 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Pot meet kettle.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
