Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-22-2014 | 06:39 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: A-320A
This is troubling since I know you know better. DALPA was asked by its members why they omitted our JV competitors in the contract comparisons leading up to C2012. ALPA had that pay data. ALPA said they did not want to publish it. They said their reason was that they were asked not to...while not producing any evidence of such communication. I found Air France's pay data in one minute and posted it here. It had everything to do with "didn't want." ALPA had the data, but didn't want to put it in the contract comparisons.
ALPA had the data. So did I. I published it here, ALPA wouldn't.
Read above and you'll this statement of yours is completely false. And since you're a current rep, that troubles me. I would have hoped as a current rep you would be fighting hard for an open and completely transparent contract comparison. Instead, you're here now setting us up for why we will yet again NOT see our JV competitors' contract details in our contract comparisons...even though ALPA has the data.
We don't know if that's a fact acl. It's clearly you're opinion, but please don't confuse your personal opinions with fact.
Carl
ALPA had the data. So did I. I published it here, ALPA wouldn't.
Read above and you'll this statement of yours is completely false. And since you're a current rep, that troubles me. I would have hoped as a current rep you would be fighting hard for an open and completely transparent contract comparison. Instead, you're here now setting us up for why we will yet again NOT see our JV competitors' contract details in our contract comparisons...even though ALPA has the data.
We don't know if that's a fact acl. It's clearly you're opinion, but please don't confuse your personal opinions with fact.
Carl
You miss the point. ALPA does have the data, but the pay data that you have from the internet is just one part of it. ALPA does have the data, but they had to agree not to publish it to see it. ALPA has stated that the data is not as clear as you like to state it to be.
I have not seen the data FWIW.
07-22-2014 | 06:42 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
PAY ME! PAY ME! I'm out of here in 5 years, Contract 2000, restoration, PLUS INTEREST! Pay Me! DPA, DPA, Contract 2012 wasn't anywhere near enough, PAY ME, I'm not thinking ahead and not supporting my union either, PAY ME.
Oh, what's that I hear?
Folks, what I am advocating here is:
- Support ALPA, your Reps and Volunteers who work for you
- Support ALPA PAC
- Think carefully about your survey responses
- Consider that scope nets you more actual pay through advancement than having $1 above whatever arbitrary metric, or contract comparison from a decade and a half ago you might have in mind.
- Just think; remember that Delta is a holding company of alter ego stacked on alter ego and the easy play is simply to move flying around to the flavor of the day while allocating costs to the "bad boys."
- Hold ALPA accountable for results. Learn about the Candidates. Know how your Reps vote. We, as members of the association fail the association when we let things like Endeavor's negotiations go unchallenged. We need to keep a very close watch on this transatlantic JV.
Bar, good points. I would also not state your last the way you have. Those negotiations and results did not go unchallenged, it was not the majority position to challenge them more formally. There was plenty of discussion and back and forth on this issue last year, and some of it was in plenary in DC. I think you heard about that.
07-22-2014 | 06:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
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From: 757/767
Oberon:
When's your TOE? Consider:
--Calling the transport company direct. Any static from them, suggest their driver may not be happy later.
--Call the LCA and let him know you may be late, and why.
--Call the Pilot Support Center, and ask for support...let them stay on hold with crew accommodations.
--Call scheds and tell them you can't fly---> your ear's still sore.
Good Luck and have FUN!
DFW
When's your TOE? Consider:
--Calling the transport company direct. Any static from them, suggest their driver may not be happy later.
--Call the LCA and let him know you may be late, and why.
--Call the Pilot Support Center, and ask for support...let them stay on hold with crew accommodations.
--Call scheds and tell them you can't fly---> your ear's still sore.
Good Luck and have FUN!
DFW
The 1:45 van works because a bottle of mouthwash soiled my extra shirt and I need to stop by the Flight Station (or whatever its called). Hopefully it works out.
Thanks for the help!
07-22-2014 | 06:59 AM
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
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From: DAL 330
I've been on this board for a lot of years but don't keep up with it all that consistently anymore, so maybe I missed something. But I don't see the discussions taking place the past few days/weeks to be any different than any number of discussions we've had over the past years. It appears to me that a lot of the complaints about this thread the past couple of days are really just an attempt to silence dissent.
If you guys want to turn it into strictly a rumor thread, answer a few questions, post a few pictures, exchange BBQ recipes, etc., then I guess that's fine. It'll be one less thing to occupy a slice of my time... which is probably a good thing. Think about it. I can live with whatever you guys decide.
If you guys want to turn it into strictly a rumor thread, answer a few questions, post a few pictures, exchange BBQ recipes, etc., then I guess that's fine. It'll be one less thing to occupy a slice of my time... which is probably a good thing. Think about it. I can live with whatever you guys decide.
DAL,
I don't think that is what is going on here. I have been on this thread for years also and every once in a while it takes a downturn. Page after page of back and forth with insults, condescension, and degradation thrown in old can get old real fast. (I am not talking about anyone in particular here - see below regarding nuance).
Dissent is needed on this thread. It would be pretty boring with everyone agreeing with each other. What a lot of guys, including myself, don't like to see are the personal insults.
A lot of communication is nonverbal - we lose that on an internet forum and often guys go high and right at the drop of a hat and then berate and belittle fellow DAL pilots. Sometimes this is out of genuine disagreement, but sometimes it is from the lack of nuance we have on the forum. I don't understand why oftentimes many are not willing to give a fellow DAL Pilot the benefit of the doubt.
In either case it is wrong to get personal, and most guys will not even read these posts past a certain point. The poster who sticks to the facts with a well thought out and analytical post will be the first to change anothers opinion on this forum (if that is even possible
).I really appreciate the divers points of view even though I don't always agree with them.
Scoop
07-22-2014 | 07:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,707
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From: Permanently scarred
Carl;
Read the PWA. It states that at the end of the three year measurement period, the company has one year to cure the deficit. IE, they are not out of compliance until the end of the cure period. No judge or arbitrator is going to side with labor if you file a grievance before the end of the one year measurement period. The non-compliance does not occur until the end of the cure period. Plain and simple.
We can agree or disagree about the language of the PWA and if it does or does not need to be changed, but what that does not do is change the language DAL is contractually held to. There is not non-compliance until the end of the cure period.
Read the PWA. It states that at the end of the three year measurement period, the company has one year to cure the deficit. IE, they are not out of compliance until the end of the cure period. No judge or arbitrator is going to side with labor if you file a grievance before the end of the one year measurement period. The non-compliance does not occur until the end of the cure period. Plain and simple.
We can agree or disagree about the language of the PWA and if it does or does not need to be changed, but what that does not do is change the language DAL is contractually held to. There is not non-compliance until the end of the cure period.
07-22-2014 | 07:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: A330
07-22-2014 | 07:14 AM
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: 747-400 Captain
Delta just shut down operations at Tel Aviv until further notice. All flights cancelled.
Good call.
Carl
Good call.
Carl
07-22-2014 | 07:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 243
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From: 717A
Delta cancels all flights to Tel Aviv indefinitely because of rockets near airport.
Delta cancels all Israel flights over missile fear - US News
Good idea.
Edit: Hey Carl, you watching CNBC too ;-)
Delta cancels all Israel flights over missile fear - US News
Good idea.
Edit: Hey Carl, you watching CNBC too ;-)
07-22-2014 | 07:27 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: A-320A
Too bad we didn't bring in some outside consultants to point out to the NC how this language was ripe for abuse. Oh, forgot, we did this on purpose because in-house expertise can and will not be out done. Those silly Fortune 500 companies could learn a thing or two about wasting money on consultants.
Didn't we do that in C2K? What happened to them?
Lets say we would reconsider that. Who would we use? Who has USAPA and APA used? Oh yeah that's right the same firm that those who are trying to unseat ALPA uses. Any what did USAPA and APA do with them? That's right, fired them. Who have they used for their consulting work since then? Yep. ALPA E&FA.
Reality is, "outside consultants" sounds like a really good idea, but when you realize that most "law firms" that mask themselves as "consultants" who work for corporate america, will not touch labor because it will cut off their true cash flow, your options get really limited. Their are two outside firms and ALPA E&FA that will truly work with labor. We use ALPA and the best firm, others have used the other and then decided to use our services.
07-22-2014 | 07:28 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Bar, good points. I would also not state your last the way you have. Those negotiations and results did not go unchallenged, it was not the majority position to challenge them more formally. There was plenty of discussion and back and forth on this issue last year, and some of it was in plenary in DC. I think you heard about that.
If we want that sort of malfeasance to stop, we have to stand up to it. An Executive Board where positions are on the line might not carry the day, but it communicates to every subsequent ALPA President not to lock the Delta MEC out of negotiations with Delta management over issues of Delta flying.
Yes ... I recognize such a vote would have failed. Sometimes you just have to do things because it is the right thing to do to protect and preserve our association. Sometimes you need to be on the record for being honest, even if it is not popular.
Yes ... you were among the very few on the right side of that issue and perhaps the only one who stood up. Without a record you don't get the credit you deserve. The converse is equally true.
... having a record matters.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-22-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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