Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-26-2014 | 10:34 PM
meh
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
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You seem to have missed the concessions the company made that offset the changes you discuss.
--Didn't miss them... That wasn't the discussion. We are focusing on one single item here: your mischaracterizing of the reserve ability to fly to ALV+15 as an unimportant change, based on your erroneous straw-man argument that not many guys actually fly to ALV+15. The fact there were OTHER gains (which may or may not have offset this concession) has nothing to do with your constant denial and misguiding that this ALV+15 was in fact a concession. Once again you're trying to throw in an unrelated fact and claim that THIS ONE ITEM wasn't a bad thing.
You also seem to forget that if reserve usage exceeds 60 hours in a month it triggers a automatic increase in manning for that category.
-- I don't forget this at all... but you already, just a page later, seem to forget what I said about 3 times in my post: SELDOM USED LIMITING FACTOR. The average of 60 hours a month isn't even driven close for when this limiting factor comes into play. You always try to claim this average use/manning formula is automatically tweaking things, and imply that it counters the moving of this edge limit from 82 to 99 hours, incorrectly.
Let's not even get into the fact that crew planning made no changes in manning assumptions with the new contract.
--So, why would they? This ALV+15 ability will generate statistics for the company as it is applied over the summer and during low-reserve coverage times. Those numbers will show that a smaller buffer of reserves can be accepted during summer months due to new ability to plan for higher reserve use IF NEEDED. That reduced buffer will be rolled into hiring requirements resulting in a smaller TOTAL hiring number than WOULD HAVE been required... had this ALV+15 single item concession not been part of the total contract 2012 package.
--Didn't miss them... That wasn't the discussion. We are focusing on one single item here: your mischaracterizing of the reserve ability to fly to ALV+15 as an unimportant change, based on your erroneous straw-man argument that not many guys actually fly to ALV+15. The fact there were OTHER gains (which may or may not have offset this concession) has nothing to do with your constant denial and misguiding that this ALV+15 was in fact a concession. Once again you're trying to throw in an unrelated fact and claim that THIS ONE ITEM wasn't a bad thing.
You also seem to forget that if reserve usage exceeds 60 hours in a month it triggers a automatic increase in manning for that category.
-- I don't forget this at all... but you already, just a page later, seem to forget what I said about 3 times in my post: SELDOM USED LIMITING FACTOR. The average of 60 hours a month isn't even driven close for when this limiting factor comes into play. You always try to claim this average use/manning formula is automatically tweaking things, and imply that it counters the moving of this edge limit from 82 to 99 hours, incorrectly.
Let's not even get into the fact that crew planning made no changes in manning assumptions with the new contract.
--So, why would they? This ALV+15 ability will generate statistics for the company as it is applied over the summer and during low-reserve coverage times. Those numbers will show that a smaller buffer of reserves can be accepted during summer months due to new ability to plan for higher reserve use IF NEEDED. That reduced buffer will be rolled into hiring requirements resulting in a smaller TOTAL hiring number than WOULD HAVE been required... had this ALV+15 single item concession not been part of the total contract 2012 package.
I hate this type of back-and-forth arguing, reminiscent of you and Carl...unfortunately, I have noticed repeated attempts by you to wrongly modify folk's understanding of this one item--ALV+15 concession-- and I can't sit and watch you continuously propagate this disinformation. In the future I will just repost a link to these posts, so that someone at least keeps calling you out on this, if you continue to misguide on this point. I don't enjoy it, and usually find your posts informative at least... wish you'd stop harping this one point.
08-26-2014 | 10:48 PM
meh
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
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I started that sailingfun reply like 4 hours ago or something, went and made dinner and lunches for kids, came back and found it half done, so finished it...
I laughed to see Scambo's reply of "ah screw it", as that's exactly how I always feel after wasting 30 min arguing here.
Anyways, the good end result here is that we're all looking at and thinking about how small tweaks in the contract can affect the total pilots and manning, and that helps get us ready for C2015. Scoop is spot on, and someone else who agreed with him, the 30 day month was a bigger tweak... but since he had covered that, and no one was standing up for the "ALV+15 was a concession, let's not do that again..." discussion, I did it.
Thanks for your comments and thoughts on all this Alan, Scoop, shiznit, Jungle, sailingfun, scambo, Freebird, FTB-- when we discuss this stuff and do the back and forth analysis, it makes us all more ready for a good C2015.
(sailing, or Alan: was reading the LiveContract to work through some scenarios on that 60 hour reserve average driving hiring... can NOT seem to find that dang formula anywhere, though have read it before! Can someone give me a helpful pointout on that? Thx)
I laughed to see Scambo's reply of "ah screw it", as that's exactly how I always feel after wasting 30 min arguing here.
Anyways, the good end result here is that we're all looking at and thinking about how small tweaks in the contract can affect the total pilots and manning, and that helps get us ready for C2015. Scoop is spot on, and someone else who agreed with him, the 30 day month was a bigger tweak... but since he had covered that, and no one was standing up for the "ALV+15 was a concession, let's not do that again..." discussion, I did it.
Thanks for your comments and thoughts on all this Alan, Scoop, shiznit, Jungle, sailingfun, scambo, Freebird, FTB-- when we discuss this stuff and do the back and forth analysis, it makes us all more ready for a good C2015.
(sailing, or Alan: was reading the LiveContract to work through some scenarios on that 60 hour reserve average driving hiring... can NOT seem to find that dang formula anywhere, though have read it before! Can someone give me a helpful pointout on that? Thx)
08-27-2014 | 04:19 AM
Wind the clock beoch
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 437
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You can vote in this country WITHOUT any form of ID, but merely having your SIDA ID visible in the customs area costs you a minimum of $1000 fine. Makes complete sense.
08-27-2014 | 04:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 195
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From: 757/767
?
LOA 29 was where we changed RES and made it good for a few pilots instead of for most pilots. C2012 RES concessions came later.
And let's remember how we got LOA 29. Some senior pilot sitting RES, btw senior is a relative term, would get assigned a trip while someone junior to them did not because the junior pilots raw score was 1 number higher, or 5, 10, 50, didn't matter. The junior pilot could have worked every day on RES and the senior one had flown nada, they'd complain that seniority wasn't being respected. Which wasn't necessarily the case, seniority was respected on day 1 of every new month on trip assignments, hence, senior pilots didn't fly typically until week 2 or 3. RES SC assignments in the meantime were assigned by CS shooting a shotgun blindfolded.
But fixing SC wasn't under consideration, the goal was a month off with full pay and no SC while a junior pilot flew to the limit in your place. So we changed a fair system to appease those who wanted people to work in their place. And anyone who questioned that was told "quit *****ing you'll be senior one day." So RES went from being a pretty decent gig for most pilots to pretty much what it was before for a few pilots.
BTW, I'm senior now (would be in top 2% of res pilots) and want nothing to do with RES, it sucks now.
LOA 29 was where we changed RES and made it good for a few pilots instead of for most pilots. C2012 RES concessions came later.
And let's remember how we got LOA 29. Some senior pilot sitting RES, btw senior is a relative term, would get assigned a trip while someone junior to them did not because the junior pilots raw score was 1 number higher, or 5, 10, 50, didn't matter. The junior pilot could have worked every day on RES and the senior one had flown nada, they'd complain that seniority wasn't being respected. Which wasn't necessarily the case, seniority was respected on day 1 of every new month on trip assignments, hence, senior pilots didn't fly typically until week 2 or 3. RES SC assignments in the meantime were assigned by CS shooting a shotgun blindfolded.
But fixing SC wasn't under consideration, the goal was a month off with full pay and no SC while a junior pilot flew to the limit in your place. So we changed a fair system to appease those who wanted people to work in their place. And anyone who questioned that was told "quit *****ing you'll be senior one day." So RES went from being a pretty decent gig for most pilots to pretty much what it was before for a few pilots.
BTW, I'm senior now (would be in top 2% of res pilots) and want nothing to do with RES, it sucks now.
08-27-2014 | 04:27 AM
Wind the clock beoch
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 437
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The MEC has a special meeting today (the 27th) and tomorrow. On the agenda is a "Negotiating Committee Report."
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
08-27-2014 | 04:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
From: 737A
The MEC has a special meeting today (the 27th) and tomorrow. On the agenda is a "Negotiating Committee Report."
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
08-27-2014 | 05:10 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
The MEC has a special meeting today (the 27th) and tomorrow. On the agenda is a "Negotiating Committee Report."
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
Has the MEC previously authorized negotiations with the company regarding:
1. early retirements?
2. joint venture compliance?
My guess is that the NC will present a LOA to the MEC for approval. No evidence to back this up other than the fact that a special meeting was called. Has anyone heard any rumblings on this?
2. Yes, sorta (not compliance, but direction was given on the Virgin JV).
Reading the tea leaves, a few reps are talking about what used to be termed "inclusive scope." A global production balance which reaches over and does not hinge on a particular JV's specific circumstance. For instance, what if we happen not to be codesharing out of Narita? What if the Company thinks of a new kind of operation, other than a JV? We want Delta pilots doing Delta flying, even if Delta has not even thought of it yet.
I've no idea if a global balance, or "Inclusive scope," could be a matter of direction. The Reps properly keep those sort of discussions in closed session. As long as we here are not under a NDA, we can connect the dots and guess.
In the case of "inclusive scope," it is a concept which was around at least 5 years before I picked it up, so that would make 20 years that someone has advocated for it. Maybe it's time has come. If not, I'll still be working on it until I retire.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-27-2014 at 05:41 AM.
08-27-2014 | 05:32 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
Likes: 0
From: 737 ATL
The recent FAR 117 deal was already too close to Section 6 negotiations.
Why give away leverage in small chunks? That's foolish.
There should be no more LOAs that solve management's problems until Contract 2015 is done.
Our contract spells out the process for dealing with surpluses. They need to follow it.
08-27-2014 | 05:39 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
In other news, a very touching retirement video:
Captain Little?s Retirement Flight ? Krista Little Photography
... and isn't that what having kids is all about?
08-27-2014 | 05:44 AM
ATL A320 B
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: No longer MEM or 9, but still a guy.
Passenger seat miles
Talk of scope on here lately has got me wondering, is there any way to determine what percentage of Passenger Seat Miles currently being marketed and sold by Delta Air Lines are flown by Delta Pilots?
In other words, how relavant are we right now as a pilot group to the product being sold as Delta...
In other words, how relavant are we right now as a pilot group to the product being sold as Delta...
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