Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-24-2018, 09:59 AM
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Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: ERJ
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Gooner
The problem with this black/white logic, current in all spheres of interest, is that it leads to no compromise and thus no contract would ever be signed.
That’s why I find it hard to fully blame and call that generation sell outs, compromise was required. Bankruptcy is too powerful a tool against workers who can’t strike to lay all responsibility at their feet.
As I have said repeatedly, it was a long, painful (for everyone, even said “sell outs”) result, that hopefully we as a profession learned from. But I hope you maintain your strong fight against giving up scope, we will need it. The new threats are unforeseen though, so it’s not always easy to avoid accidentally selling out as you say.
That’s why I find it hard to fully blame and call that generation sell outs, compromise was required. Bankruptcy is too powerful a tool against workers who can’t strike to lay all responsibility at their feet.
As I have said repeatedly, it was a long, painful (for everyone, even said “sell outs”) result, that hopefully we as a profession learned from. But I hope you maintain your strong fight against giving up scope, we will need it. The new threats are unforeseen though, so it’s not always easy to avoid accidentally selling out as you say.
Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again.
03-24-2018, 10:26 AM
Optimized
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by poopplop
Yes, I understand compromise. I have already presented an alternate compromise that wouldn't have sold job market share. You act as if selling jobs was the only option to compromise. Black/white logic, as you say...
Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again.
Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again.
If you want to lay blame, yes they signed off on it. I may be wrong but I doubt regional jets were on the scope offer sheet from the pilot side. I choose to fault the company and wanting to beat down labor prices rather than fellow pilots.
03-24-2018, 10:40 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by badflaps
Aviation has had crap jobs since Glenn Curtiss, "Improvements" at some one elses expense is little more than wealth sharing.
I love it when mainline pilots complain about regional pilots wages and how it hurts their profit sharing.
03-24-2018, 11:05 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,724
Originally Posted by msprj2
I’m sure that when FA’s or MX get a raise that burns you. Money out of your pocket
I love it when mainline pilots complain about regional pilots wages and how it hurts their profit sharing.
I love it when mainline pilots complain about regional pilots wages and how it hurts their profit sharing.
03-24-2018, 12:34 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
Originally Posted by poopplop
Yes, I understand compromise. I have already presented an alternate compromise that wouldn't have sold job market share. You act as if selling jobs was the only option to compromise. Black/white logic, as you say...
Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again.
Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again.
03-24-2018, 02:41 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by poopplop
That is unfortunate, Denny. However I won't entertain a fallacious argument or respond to ad hominem attacks. That is the point I have made. If you understand why I responded the way I did, then at least I have taught you something.
I posted some links below just in case you don't know what a fallacious argument is. And be sure to watch the whole youtube video I posted describing ad hominem attacks, so you can fully understand why you haven't produced a sound argument for me to respond to yet. If you think you have superior experience and knowledge on the subject, use it to beat me in an argument. Don't try and use it to beat ME. After all, you will probably have a hard time insulting an anonymous internet profile with a username like "poopplop".
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fallacious+argument
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
I am happy to discuss the topic with you and will try to be as civil as possible, with perhaps a few interjections of sarcasm. Have a nice day.
poop
I posted some links below just in case you don't know what a fallacious argument is. And be sure to watch the whole youtube video I posted describing ad hominem attacks, so you can fully understand why you haven't produced a sound argument for me to respond to yet. If you think you have superior experience and knowledge on the subject, use it to beat me in an argument. Don't try and use it to beat ME. After all, you will probably have a hard time insulting an anonymous internet profile with a username like "poopplop".
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fallacious+argument
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
I am happy to discuss the topic with you and will try to be as civil as possible, with perhaps a few interjections of sarcasm. Have a nice day.
poop
Your argument is that we (senior pilots) sold scope to benefit ourselves. I, and others, am trying to refute that argument with facts you refuse acknowledge, ie bankruptcy being a major factor. Unless you have been thru process personally, I don't think you can comprehend the scope of how screwed you (the pilot group) are.... You also need to realize that with every contract following the BK one, we have reduced small jet outsourcing. Currently RJ flying is dying a slow death. It's my feeling, in the next contract, we should be focusing on large jet scope that we have allowed to be eroded while tightening small jet scope.
My point is you refuse to acknowledge the position that bankruptcy puts a pilot group in. Hence my question. Yes, we voted it in..........with a proverbial gun to our head. The alternative being our Contract thrown out by the Court and the Company do it any way. If you cannot wrap your mind around that and acknowledge it, this discussion is over.
Dennt
03-24-2018, 02:45 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by msprj2
I’m sure that when FA’s or MX get a raise that burns you. Money out of your pocket
I love it when mainline pilots complain about regional pilots wages and how it hurts their profit sharing.
I love it when mainline pilots complain about regional pilots wages and how it hurts their profit sharing.
Denny
03-24-2018, 03:10 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
Wow. Sounds like you are pretty butthurt. You are barking up the wrong tree with badflaps. He has been retired a number of years and got screwed by the bankruptcy. In other words, he doesn't get, and I don't think ever has got, profit sharing.
Denny
Denny
Tell me I’m hurting their profit sharing with our new pay rates.
03-24-2018, 03:14 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by msprj2
Sorry if he got screwed. I just don’t like listening to the jumpseater
Tell me I’m hurting their profit sharing with our new pay rates.
Tell me I’m hurting their profit sharing with our new pay rates.
Denny
03-24-2018, 04:50 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
First of all, I have NOT made a fallacious argument. I have simply asked you a question you refuse to answer and then accuse me of attacking you. Please point out my fallacious argument. As far as ad hominem attacks, point one out to me and I'll do the same for you. You are the one that has been in attack mode the whole discussion. All I've been doing is defending myself (and others).
Your argument is that we (senior pilots) sold scope to benefit ourselves. I, and others, am trying to refute that argument with facts you refuse acknowledge, ie bankruptcy being a major factor. Unless you have been thru process personally, I don't think you can comprehend the scope of how screwed you (the pilot group) are.... You also need to realize that with every contract following the BK one, we have reduced small jet outsourcing. Currently RJ flying is dying a slow death. It's my feeling, in the next contract, we should be focusing on large jet scope that we have allowed to be eroded while tightening small jet scope.
My point is you refuse to acknowledge the position that bankruptcy puts a pilot group in. Hence my question. Yes, we voted it in..........with a proverbial gun to our head. The alternative being our Contract thrown out by the Court and the Company do it any way. If you cannot wrap your mind around that and acknowledge it, this discussion is over.
Dennt
Your argument is that we (senior pilots) sold scope to benefit ourselves. I, and others, am trying to refute that argument with facts you refuse acknowledge, ie bankruptcy being a major factor. Unless you have been thru process personally, I don't think you can comprehend the scope of how screwed you (the pilot group) are.... You also need to realize that with every contract following the BK one, we have reduced small jet outsourcing. Currently RJ flying is dying a slow death. It's my feeling, in the next contract, we should be focusing on large jet scope that we have allowed to be eroded while tightening small jet scope.
My point is you refuse to acknowledge the position that bankruptcy puts a pilot group in. Hence my question. Yes, we voted it in..........with a proverbial gun to our head. The alternative being our Contract thrown out by the Court and the Company do it any way. If you cannot wrap your mind around that and acknowledge it, this discussion is over.
Dennt
I'm not trying to argue the rest of your post, just that it hasn't been constant "take scope back!" since bankruptcy.
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