tsquare

OK... I don't have a dog in that fight.. just curious. Good luck

Pineapple Guy

I'd LOVE to know the history behind permanent recall rights. Dinner and all the beer you can drink bets it was Red Book guys so they could virtually forever hang on to those coveted super premium whale slots; regardless of where the equipment moved. That the Green Book guys bought into that is surprising to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

Carl??? How about a little history lesson here. If seniority is everything, why have ANY reinstatement rights whereby a junior pilot takes a slot that a senior pilot wants....

1234

Carl,

I agree completely in that our fNWA system was better, but I think that unless we actually know all of the components and issues leading to the decision as to which system to adopt (which I don't have the whole picture), we don't know if keeping the NWA system would have been better. I have faith that such a major decision like that included the highest level of the company and comes down to a risk analysis in addition to a cost benefit analysis. Which decision is less risky in regards to having the house of cards come crumbling down. I don't think that this decision however, is anything like the issues you are discussing relating to the adoption of how to fly our airplanes Call me a kool-aid drinker or rose colored glasses wearer, but I have to put my faith in the decision that was made and believe that it was the best decision given the information at the time it was made. Just like we pilots don't appreciate other speculating or Monday morning quarterbacking our decisions during an emergency because "you were not there and don't know what we were dealing with" I have to give the same benefit to my fellow professionals in the management and operation of this airline.

Just my thougths.

Nosmo King

I said nothing about a permanent fence, it WAS permanent recall rights to every position you got displaced from at fNW prior to DALPA eliminating that in the JPWA. Prior to DALPA, green book guys had a much harder time bidding wide body captain even after the fences dropped because of RECALL rights to existing positions. Positions at new bases or positions added for expansion were seniority awards (e.g. MSP330).

The only way fNW recall rights were terminated were if you bid a higher preference or refused a recall, my "perception" of that is just fine. And yes, DALPA got rid of the permanent recall rights, which was the point I was making about redbook guys being disadvantaged by something OTHER THAN Roberts fences dropping.

Republic guys were NOT fenced off all widebodies, they were fenced off below a certain quota. There were several Green Book guys on the DC-10 prior to the end of the Roberts Award because the A330 got deemed a replacement aircraft and was lumped in with DC-10 for quotas. There were Green Book guys flying FO on both 747 and DC10 before the end of Roberts and there were some 747A positions as early as 1990 that were awarded to Green Book because they were above the Roberts quota.

I know this because my ALPA job in 1990 was to do real-time monitoring of Roberts quotas each month while positions were being awarded.

Nosmo King

I won't swear this is 100% accurate, but I recall the last red book contract having permanent recall rights. That would have been the last NW contract printed prior to the NW/RP meger.

tsquare

OK.. thanks for the history lesson

But you DID say this:

georgetg

"leave it to the discretion of the crew" is exactly PMDAL policy.
Some folks have different techniques for different things but they are just that techniques...

Why don't you review the Crew Rest section on the FCCQ 2010 CD.

It discusses a variety of way on breaking up the trip and includes pros and cons for each technique...

Cheers
George

Check Essential

tsquare-
You are doing it right. Captains are supposed to be giving up legs if the FOs need landings. Most do it, but not all. Its not mandatory.

FOM Section 3.2 :

Recency
Captains/First Officers

Pilots are required by FARs to accomplish three takeoffs and landings in the previous 90-day period. Captains should discuss recency with the First Officer(s) at the beginning of the rotation and manage flight legs to ensure all pilots remain qualified. On flights requiring more than one First Officer, seat position should be determined by the need to maintain recency, not by the rotation the pilot is flying.

"Culture" question -

Delta has never really made any distinction about which FO was on the "relief pilot" rotation. Once you signed in, then it was always discussed about who would be relief on which legs. There would then be a gentleman's agreement based on who needed a landing. If both guys were OK on recency, then it would be a coin toss. Was that not the case at NWA? Did one guy come in knowing he was "relief pilot" for the trip?

newKnow

That's not exactly right. Recall rights were base specific.

(I don't think I met your qualifications exactly, so I will just settle for the beer.)

What's wrong with permanent recall rights anyway? I was shocked that the Old Delta didn't have them. 180 days is a joke and not even worth the contract paper it's written on. I bet they would save the company more money in training cost than single engine taxing. But, not my newly won beer. I will not wager that for anything.

maddogmax

You have to remember that the "junior" guy got the position in the first place because the "senior" guy didn't bid it. It wasn't about senioity, it was bid what you want. Of course the fences came into play but that was out of the control of the pilot group at that time. It is true that once the fences came down, the recall rights prevented come "green book" guy's from getting on an airplane till all the displaced guy's were recalled. We all were just playing by the rules the Robert's award provided. Just like we are all playing by the rules of the SLI