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Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 917072)
You can't call anything about the RJ plague except a failure by management... and us, for allowing it to exist. Billions and billions of dollars flushed (along with our jobs) down the toilet in an experiment to see if the basic premises of econmics and the laws of physics could be tampered with.
And of course, the theory is that we paid (dearly) for Comair because we couldn't control it well enough. And maybe all we gain was the right to kill it. At the same time, I don't really see what the intrinsic value is. Since all regional carriers hide under our brand, they don't bring a brand. They don't bring anything, from management's standpoint, that another DCI carrier doesn't. Any assets they have that we want to keep, we don't have to sell. So I don't see any unique value that it brings. So when people say it's an asset, I'm not sure what they mean. It's an asset that would require a huge investment going forward, and an "asset" that offer an undifferentiated product at a greater cost. Why would a CEO get sentimental about it? They probably look at it in terms of an experiment in outsourcing, and since it wasn't particularly successful, they probably will shut it down at the lowest cost. No second-thought given, smoke-a-cigar-drink-a-cognac-and-go-to-bed-and-sleep-like-a-baby-like. What's a little ominous in all of this, of course, is that you could fast-forward ten years, and substitute the words "Skyteam" for "Delta", and "Delta" for "DCI" or "Comair". Which is precisely why we should have a NSL that allows us not to be whipsawed against our own, and VERY effective language in any JV agreements so that we can't be whipsawed from aborad either. Vol |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 917048)
I got it all squared away. Thanks for the link. :)
Zumocast |
Originally Posted by Jabberwock
(Post 917064)
Your perspective ... from their perspective they were bought, their code was taken, their merger request denied, their attempts at negotiating scope to protect their jobs refused, their flying was dispersed. Clearly they saw the divide as having happened at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting.
The very point (from management's persepctive) of having regionals is to outsource the flying, so merging the airlines would have been a very, very difficult order even if a SLI could be agreed upon. Utlimately, I blame the Comiar leadership for the fact we didn't even try. Not that I condoned the lawsuit or supported it, but I understood why they decided to fight back. From their perspective, they were happy at a rapidly growing, highly profitable, airline which was telling them DC9's were coming to fly under Comair code. Delta bought them, excluded them from "their" flying and trashed the place. While they certainly contributed to the battle damage, history has proven most of their worst fears were spot on accurate. In Comair's salad days they had their own code, own tickets, or marketing. Certainly they were growing into markets Delta was leaving, but as far as they were concerned it was no different than Starbucks moving into where Dunkin Doughnuts had been. They developed a lot of their own routes. My understanding was that part of the reason for buying Comair was to capture it's expansion and leverage it. You and I know the history of other regional airlines who tried to make it on their own code. Atlantic Coast, MidWay, MidWest all died with pilots losing their jobs. Comair and ASA might have done the same, but that is historical conjecture. They know Delta bought them and blame Delta for their problems. I think you did a good job describing the world as they saw it (the salad days) as opposed to how it actually ends up for regionals that take on majors. Maybe they had such lofty expectations that they felt a staple really was an affront to their dignity. Maybe they already saw themselves in 737's. Or maybe it was a case of the (senior) union people failing the majority while attempting a bit of strong-arm tactics. At the end of the day, I think you look at Delta's interractions with Comair as a failure (both in terms of the union and management), and as pilots we try to do something better. Utlimately, I think one of the essential steps in advancing our professions is to stop being married to individual airlines, and therfore, we need to develop a NSL. Majors haven't been hiring much, which might make it opportune to move now, while everyone is somewhat segregated. |
Originally Posted by volav8r1
(Post 917077)
100% spot on! This should be a HUGE focus on C12K. I'd love a big payday, but it won't mean much without job protection. Hopefully we can secure both!
Vol |
Sink,
Comair started in 1977. They developed their own routes with no affiliation and briefly were tied up with Piedmont in 1984 to make Dayton a hub. Delta, specifically Dave Garrett asked Comair to instead build Cincinnati and made Comair a partner in then secret plans to build a hub. You are right, that deal made Comair. When Delta decided to buy Comair, the deal was "sell to us at this price, or we'll stop letting you use our brand." It was a concessionary offer and made Comair share holders really mad. There was a lot of populist talk of making Comair completely independent of Delta. That investor rhetoric was repeated and amplified among Comair pilots, many of whom had gotten quite wealthy on Comair's explosive stock growth. So yeah, you've got a good point there. |
Originally Posted by n9810f
(Post 917054)
Thursday morning Delta put out a release touting additional first class seating. Most of it is stuff we've already been told - M9K goes to 16; M8K goes to 16; 76Q goes to 30...
But also listed is the 757-200 fleet going from 24 to 28!?!? Is anyone aware how they're going to pull that off? I figured 26 seats to make it equal with the 75X. Is this a typo? We'd have to remove forward galley space or slide back a restroom at 2R or remove the entire galley on the 757 at 2L and the entertainment rack at 2L on the 75X. And that's just the DL fleet, not talking about how you can take PMNW 75N's from 22 to 28... The release I read had a picture of an RJ, seems we cannot even get a picture of a real DAL plane on our own news releases anymore, sad. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 916998)
Wasatch,
Your opinion is understandable and personally, I've got some real concerns about a group we have flowing up to us currently based on objective, first hand, knowledge. (we will leave it at that) But the administration of our union and our MEC can't be based on personal bigotries (and for the most part it isn't). A union gets its strength from the people it represents. It needs membership to be effective. Our union is most powerful when it represents the sum total (a monopoly) of pilot labor. Delta's merged a bunch of airlines in its history. The Pan Am guys worked out ok, although a few were stapled in from Ransome's ATR operation. You use the positive example of Northwest and I agree. Once pilots come on board they become Delta pilots and act like Delta pilots. If they don't, it is management's job to reform them, or get the bad apples removed from the bushel. So, while you and I have common concerns on a personal level, the administration of our union has to take the high road, promote our interests and always defend our jobs (even the bad apples). Our union can best benefit us when it seeks to protect our seniority list, our longevity and our work. The best tool the union has to do this is unity. Like a safety culture, it is a mindset. (sorry for the boring posts) |
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 917130)
This does not surprise me. I have heard from more than one instructor pilot the same thing.
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Everyone has probation at Delta. It is a misnomer that some do not. Read the LOA's, they state that if a Delta pilot flows down there are some instances where they will be off probation if still in their probationary year, but not the other way.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 917151)
Everyone has probation at Delta.
You are now off APC probation. |
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