Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 921677)

Actually, I think this is a much better way to frame the discussion. Why not something better? And why would we want 80 to be the trigger for premium pay, when the TLV is 77 hours?

But when you start to contemplate better, in my mind a system that is better doesn't require you to work overtime for a living wage, especially since doing so automatically implies working more instead of having more pilots. In my mind, anyone that wants routinely go above 80 is actually concluding we have too many pilots. I believe it is an established fact that the premium system at NW was one significant factor in a contract that allowed leaner staffing, so adopting a system that mirrors it will result in less growth (if we're lucky), or surplusses if we're not. You can try to ignore the staffing implications for the airline as a whole, and just debate the value of 1.5 vs. 2.0 for an individual, but the actual discussion is actually about why 77 isn't enough for all of us.

It's been a miracle that we've been able to merge, reduce the overall mainline fleet, and not furlough. We should celebrate that, and think about ways where we can all make money on a normal schedule (i.e. based on 77 hours TLV's), and ensure that the company is heavily penalized for running lean. Premium flying should remain an exception, and the new rule that ensures the senior guys doesn't get his second until the junior guy gets his first helps distribute it to everyone.

By taking steps to make exceptional flying more tempting, you're actually helping the company plan on lower reserve levels. Part of a better Section 23 would be to have a good Reserve System once again, which would enable people to take advantage of upgrades sooner. So in my mind, less routine overtime flying equals less staffing, and equals less opportunities for rewarding advancement. It basically comes down to whoring for a better wage, where the discussion should be about not needing to ***** in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 921677)

Actually, I think this is a much better way to frame the discussion. Why not something better? And why would we want 80 to be the trigger for premium pay, when the TLV is 77 hours?

But when you start to contemplate better, in my mind a system that is better doesn't require you to work overtime for a living wage, especially since doing so automatically implies working more instead of having more pilots. In my mind, anyone that wants routinely go above 80 is actually concluding we have too many pilots. I believe it is an established fact that the premium system at NW was one significant factor in a contract that allowed leaner staffing, so adopting a system that mirrors it will result in less growth (if we're lucky), or surplusses if we're not. You can try to ignore the staffing implications for the airline as a whole, and just debate the value of 1.5 vs. 2.0 for an individual, but the actual discussion is actually about why 77 isn't enough for all of us.

It's been a miracle that we've been able to merge, reduce the overall mainline fleet, and not furlough. We should celebrate that, and think about ways where we can all make money on a normal schedule (i.e. based on 77 hours TLV's), and ensure that the company is heavily penalized for running lean. Premium flying should remain an exception, and the new rule that ensures the senior guys doesn't get his second until the junior guy gets his first helps distribute it to everyone.

By taking steps to make exceptional flying more tempting, you're actually helping the company plan on lower reserve levels. Part of a better Section 23 would be to have a good Reserve System once again, which would enable people to take advantage of upgrades sooner. So in my mind, less routine overtime flying equals less staffing, and equals less opportunities for rewarding advancement. It basically comes down to whoring for a better wage, where the discussion should be about not needing to ***** in the first place.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 921688)

The NW copilot I just flew with told me that they only got the 1.5 pay on time over 80 however there was a cap on that time and you really could only get it for about 5 hours a month? Can any of the former NW pilots explain the system and how it worked? Was there a max you get get the 1.5 for?

Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 921677)

By taking steps to make exceptional flying more tempting, you're actually helping the company plan on lower reserve levels. Part of a better Section 23 would be to have a good Reserve System once again, which would enable people to take advantage of upgrades sooner. So in my mind, less routine overtime flying equals less staffing, and equals less opportunities for rewarding advancement. It basically comes down to whoring for a better wage, where the discussion should be about not needing to ***** in the first place.

Originally Posted by INAV8OR (Post 921699)

Quick GS question, I am and RSV guy. Awarded a 2 day GS credit is 1030 blk is 734. The days are not x days. So, do I get the credit of 1030 plus 2 pb days or just the blk and no pb days? Thanks.