Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-25-2011, 10:07 AM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Posts: 1,069
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Yep, which means more stability, less training, more flexibility during IROPS and less cost. Seems like a win / win if I've ever seen one.
There is no reason we can not have a virtual chief pilot or make places like BOS a satellite of NYC, or MCO a satellite of ATL. They out source most HR functions and drug tests. If something happens that is a jeopardy situation, most of that is going to end up in ATL eventually anyway.
I don't even think a CPO secretary on site is a requirement.
There is no reason we can not have a virtual chief pilot or make places like BOS a satellite of NYC, or MCO a satellite of ATL. They out source most HR functions and drug tests. If something happens that is a jeopardy situation, most of that is going to end up in ATL eventually anyway.
I don't even think a CPO secretary on site is a requirement.
01-25-2011, 10:10 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Posts: 1,069
Originally Posted by sailingfun
International categories have been able to fly domestic rotations at Delta for at least the last 30 years. It really would not be workable in many bases to have it any other way. The company needs the ability to fly domestic legs with some international crews.
What has caused the current problem is not international crews being allowed to fly domestic legs. The problem is caused by the huge cut in international pay and how it is applied. Prior to the 1113 contract international pay was 15 dollars an hour for CA's and 10 for FO's. It applied to all operations in a international category including reserve guarantee, DH, domestic legs ect.. It is now 6 and 4 dollars an hour and only applies to actual international flying.
Prior to the 1113 contract the economic penalty was to high for the company to combine the categories and pay out all that international pay. The company could when needed fly domestic legs in the international categories but paid a penalty to do so. They only used that option when it was really required.
I believe one of the reasons they are rushing to get the 767 converted to all ER is so in the next contract when we open to restore international pay and how it is applied to the old standard they will claim its now way to expensive since the categories are combined. The answer to the company should be "I guess you will have to reopen the domestic categories" Contract surveys are coming soon. Get your wish lists ready. Going back to the old standard of international pay will certainly be high on my list.
What has caused the current problem is not international crews being allowed to fly domestic legs. The problem is caused by the huge cut in international pay and how it is applied. Prior to the 1113 contract international pay was 15 dollars an hour for CA's and 10 for FO's. It applied to all operations in a international category including reserve guarantee, DH, domestic legs ect.. It is now 6 and 4 dollars an hour and only applies to actual international flying.
Prior to the 1113 contract the economic penalty was to high for the company to combine the categories and pay out all that international pay. The company could when needed fly domestic legs in the international categories but paid a penalty to do so. They only used that option when it was really required.
I believe one of the reasons they are rushing to get the 767 converted to all ER is so in the next contract when we open to restore international pay and how it is applied to the old standard they will claim its now way to expensive since the categories are combined. The answer to the company should be "I guess you will have to reopen the domestic categories" Contract surveys are coming soon. Get your wish lists ready. Going back to the old standard of international pay will certainly be high on my list.
Reserves got paid international pay on their guarantee based on the percentage of international flying done for that month.
Example: 75 hour guarantee and you fly one 3 day international trip for 16 hours for the month. 75 hours of international pay.
75 hour guarantee and you fly a 16 hour int'l trip and 32 hours of domestic in the month, 33% of your guarantee is paid with int'l override.
Of course raising the guarantee to 75 and having the same rigs for reserves as lineholders would be even better...
01-25-2011, 10:11 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Excellent post. Thanks. Just considering how to apply the wisdom of your post to our current operation.
What are your thoughts on the opposite extreme, like the 737 where the jet is used for Flag operations, but just barely?
767 pay does need increase on a relative basis in any event.
What are your thoughts on the opposite extreme, like the 737 where the jet is used for Flag operations, but just barely?
767 pay does need increase on a relative basis in any event.
The way things used to work was if you were in a international category you got international pay on all hours. If you were in a domestic category you got international pay if you flew a international leg. That is what I think we should try to get back in then next contract.
The reason the company needs some ability to fly international pilots on domestic legs is somewhat obvious. The best example is that at Delta we have 3 different small categories. 747, A330, 767-400. It would not make sense to force the company to have both a domestic and international category for those 3 aircraft. There will be times when the company flies those aircraft on domestic flights. They pay a penalty to do that but don't have to staff a second category.
The opposite applies to domestic categories. The company needs the ability to fly some of those jets on international routes. When that happens they should get international pay. Contrary to posts on here a few months back they do still get international pay in that situation. When it was 15 dollars an hour however you found bidding patterns changed. Pilots would seek out rotations with the maximum international legs. Thats not really the case anymore. Pilots bid for the best trips.
01-25-2011, 10:16 AM
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Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by scambo1
Where does horizon end up?
As far as the 737-900ER goes, this could will allow Delta to see how well that airframe does on some of the current 757 domestic routes. Those airplanes will show up on the SEA-ATL, SEA-JFK, SEA-DTW, SEA-MSP, SEA-MEM, LAX-ATL, LAX-JFK, LAX-DTW, LAX-MSP, LAX-MEM, and all the Hawaii flying from LAX.
01-25-2011, 10:18 AM
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Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by tsquare
The only thing I will comment on is the highlighted sentence. The rest of your post is OK with me...
As far as it being "workable", I think the combination of international and domestic legs are problematic too.. Example: I was supposed to give a TOE to a captain whose trip went DTW-ATL-PIT-CDG... Because of IROPS, the ENTIRE rotation got cancelled, and skeds wound up scrambling to cover (who knows how many flights). I realize that that is along the same lines as snow removal in ATL.. an acceptable risk, but it seems to have a greater potential to cause problems, and those problems are complex. I guess what bothers me is that the touted synergies of the combined domestic/international -ER category is mostly being realized in head count reduction only because the number of DHs and hub layovers is still pretty staggering. Some of that could be because of the FA situation, and once that is resolved, things might improve.. I dunno. All in all though, improving the international pay will be high on my list too. Too bad the horse will not only be out of the barn.. it will be so far down the road he will belong to somebody else.... still a failure of the association in my opinion because they should have seen this coming. I certainly did... it was pretty obvious.
As far as it being "workable", I think the combination of international and domestic legs are problematic too.. Example: I was supposed to give a TOE to a captain whose trip went DTW-ATL-PIT-CDG... Because of IROPS, the ENTIRE rotation got cancelled, and skeds wound up scrambling to cover (who knows how many flights). I realize that that is along the same lines as snow removal in ATL.. an acceptable risk, but it seems to have a greater potential to cause problems, and those problems are complex. I guess what bothers me is that the touted synergies of the combined domestic/international -ER category is mostly being realized in head count reduction only because the number of DHs and hub layovers is still pretty staggering. Some of that could be because of the FA situation, and once that is resolved, things might improve.. I dunno. All in all though, improving the international pay will be high on my list too. Too bad the horse will not only be out of the barn.. it will be so far down the road he will belong to somebody else.... still a failure of the association in my opinion because they should have seen this coming. I certainly did... it was pretty obvious.
My point on the need for some domestic flying in international categories really was not directed at those type rotations. It was directed at the fact that it would not be economically sound to force the company to have a domestic and international 747 category or the same on the A330 or 767-400. It also applies to the 7ER the way they used to run JFK. We have such a huge loss of flying in the winter to Europe that they needed the ability to fly domestic rotations in the winter or they would be grossly overmanned. When I was a copilot every Spring there was a AE to increase manning on the ER and every fall there was a displacement. It makes more sense to do some domestic flying and keep the overall hours the same.
I think the combined domestic and international rotation issue is somewhat taking care of itself. As you pointed out it creates all kinds of potential problems for the company. I have noticed there are far fewer combined rotations then a few months back when the company first started building those types of trips.
01-25-2011, 10:44 AM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Nosmo King
Here's an addition from the old NW contract.
Reserves got paid international pay on their guarantee based on the percentage of international flying done for that month.
Example: 75 hour guarantee and you fly one 3 day international trip for 16 hours for the month. 75 hours of international pay.
75 hour guarantee and you fly a 16 hour int'l trip and 32 hours of domestic in the month, 33% of your guarantee is paid with int'l override.
Of course raising the guarantee to 75 and having the same rigs for reserves as lineholders would be even better...
Reserves got paid international pay on their guarantee based on the percentage of international flying done for that month.
Example: 75 hour guarantee and you fly one 3 day international trip for 16 hours for the month. 75 hours of international pay.
75 hour guarantee and you fly a 16 hour int'l trip and 32 hours of domestic in the month, 33% of your guarantee is paid with int'l override.
Of course raising the guarantee to 75 and having the same rigs for reserves as lineholders would be even better...
01-25-2011, 10:46 AM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Really, we'd sure need to avoid a cut an paste on scope. The Q400's numbers are very good on <400 mile routes out of Atlanta. The only thing that kept that from happening on a large scale was the airplane's 737-800 sized parking requirements and gate space limitations. Before assuming anything about that airplane, look at the numbers. It is a much better DC9 / MD88 replacement than anyone gives it credit for being.
01-25-2011, 10:47 AM
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Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by sailingfun
What has caused the current problem is not international crews being allowed to fly domestic legs. The problem is caused by the huge cut in international pay and how it is applied. Prior to the 1113 contract international pay was 15 dollars an hour for CA's and 10 for FO's. It applied to all operations in a international category including reserve guarantee, DH, domestic legs ect.. It is now 6 and 4 dollars an hour and only applies to actual international flying.
The $15/$10 you remember was night pay. From the C2K language
International Pay
International pay is (effective 5/1/00):
Captain $8.00
First Officer $6.00
Second Officer $4.00
D. Night Pay
Night pay is:
Captain $15.00
First Officer $10.00
Last edited by Wilbur Wright; 01-25-2011 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Added PWA reference and corrected amounts
01-25-2011, 10:56 AM
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Posts: 11,989
Wilbur,
How is your brother? Heard you were going to bid A330 Seattle. Glad you can hold it. Orville's still kibitzing about losing the coin toss and that he gets unstacked every month.
What's Ernie Gann like to fly with? Heard he's a PITA FO that wants to upgrade.
How is your brother? Heard you were going to bid A330 Seattle. Glad you can hold it. Orville's still kibitzing about losing the coin toss and that he gets unstacked every month.
What's Ernie Gann like to fly with? Heard he's a PITA FO that wants to upgrade.
01-25-2011, 10:58 AM
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Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Wilbur Wright
Not completely true. Although the international override applied to all operations, it's been $6/$4 as long as I can remember (even under C2K.) The BK rate was $5/$3, with the rates adjusted back up under the JCBA.
I think your correct on that. I was looking at the difference between the 7ER and domestic 767 and forgot the actual ER aircraft also paid more back then. I think with the aircraft difference and International pay it ended up around 15 an hour.
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