Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-20-2011, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by iceman49
Perhaps thats why they are considering a monthly APA system...no more waiting around.
The APA was a good system, and allowed for monthly bids, as well as the company to respond more quickly to market conditions. The current 270/365 conversion cycle is simply not responsive enough to adjust for market forces that can move well within a 6 month cycle. The down side is it allows for position sharpshooting by the company, and if you are near the bottom of any list expect to be bouncing back and forth between requals on any given aircraft on a sometimes semi-annual basis. The good is that bids come out monthly, albeit smaller, that allows to easily shift between bases, as well as the requirement to be trained 3.5 months from the bid award. Freezes mitigated too much movement, but we also had unlimited reinstatement rights if bumped from a position.
All in all it was some good, some bad, but pilots preferred it over the previous system, similar to the current AE. that was abandoned in 98'. It allowed the company to be more nimble both in responding to market conditions as well as metering training loads.
FWIW, the old PWA language that covered it:
24. E. Awarding of Permanent Position Vacancies
E.1. The bid of each pilot for a permanent position shall be that indicated on his EPL.
E.2. Awarding of all permanent positions shall be made in accordance with system seniority from the EPLs and shall be published no later than the 20th calendar day of each month.
E.2.a. The effective date of the award to a permanent position vacancy shall be the first day of the fourth ensuing bid period (e.g., awards made in July will be effective on the first day of the November flying month). A pilot shall hold the permanent position as of the effective date of the permanent position award.
E.2.b. When an award is made requiring initial qualification training, the pilot shall commence flying in such category as of the completion of training (see Section 25 A.6.a., Section 24 J.1.a. Exception and Section 24 E.2.c). However, a pilot who:
(i) has not completed initial qualification training within one month after the effective date of the award, or
(ii) has not completed initial qualification training by the effective date of the award when such pilot is involuntarily displaced pursuant to Section 24 G. from a position in which he was not initially qualified,
for a reason other than the unavailability of the pilot (including his unavailability because he does not hold the required FAA medical certificate or because he has not successfully completed the written portion of the FAA flight engineer examination or the written portion of the FAA air transport rating examination), or act of nature, or withdrawal of an aircraft type from service or work stoppage directly affecting training or other circumstance agreed to between the Vice President of Flight Operations and the MEC Chairman as being beyond the Company’s control:
E.2.b.(1) Shall not fly in any other position as a temporary or call-out/down pilot until his initial qualification training is completed. If the first day of the second month falls during a pilot’s trip hour period, he will be paid in the awarded category effective on such day, but he will not be assigned to the awarded position until completion of his trip and will not be rescheduled to return to his base later than originally scheduled.
E.2.b.(2) Shall be deemed to be a reserve pilot in his awarded position for the balance of the bid period in which his training is completed, subject to his selection as a call-down pilot in accordance with Section 24 J.2.d.
E.1. The bid of each pilot for a permanent position shall be that indicated on his EPL.
E.2. Awarding of all permanent positions shall be made in accordance with system seniority from the EPLs and shall be published no later than the 20th calendar day of each month.
E.2.a. The effective date of the award to a permanent position vacancy shall be the first day of the fourth ensuing bid period (e.g., awards made in July will be effective on the first day of the November flying month). A pilot shall hold the permanent position as of the effective date of the permanent position award.
E.2.b. When an award is made requiring initial qualification training, the pilot shall commence flying in such category as of the completion of training (see Section 25 A.6.a., Section 24 J.1.a. Exception and Section 24 E.2.c). However, a pilot who:
(i) has not completed initial qualification training within one month after the effective date of the award, or
(ii) has not completed initial qualification training by the effective date of the award when such pilot is involuntarily displaced pursuant to Section 24 G. from a position in which he was not initially qualified,
for a reason other than the unavailability of the pilot (including his unavailability because he does not hold the required FAA medical certificate or because he has not successfully completed the written portion of the FAA flight engineer examination or the written portion of the FAA air transport rating examination), or act of nature, or withdrawal of an aircraft type from service or work stoppage directly affecting training or other circumstance agreed to between the Vice President of Flight Operations and the MEC Chairman as being beyond the Company’s control:
E.2.b.(1) Shall not fly in any other position as a temporary or call-out/down pilot until his initial qualification training is completed. If the first day of the second month falls during a pilot’s trip hour period, he will be paid in the awarded category effective on such day, but he will not be assigned to the awarded position until completion of his trip and will not be rescheduled to return to his base later than originally scheduled.
E.2.b.(2) Shall be deemed to be a reserve pilot in his awarded position for the balance of the bid period in which his training is completed, subject to his selection as a call-down pilot in accordance with Section 24 J.2.d.
Last edited by Fly4hire; 03-20-2011 at 07:39 AM.
03-20-2011, 07:34 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Who is they?
The APA was a good system, and allowed for monthly bids, as well as the company to respond more quickly to market conditions. The current 270/365 conversion cycle is simply not responsive enough to adjust for market conditions that can move well within a 6 month cycle....It allowed the company to be more nimble both in responding to market conditions as well as metering training loads.
The APA was a good system, and allowed for monthly bids, as well as the company to respond more quickly to market conditions. The current 270/365 conversion cycle is simply not responsive enough to adjust for market conditions that can move well within a 6 month cycle....It allowed the company to be more nimble both in responding to market conditions as well as metering training loads.
03-20-2011, 07:40 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
.... which brings me to a rant!
Over the last fifteen years ALPA has been told, repeatedly, that their efforts to divide our union along "regional" and "mainline" terms to monetize and bargain in outsourcing was a recipe for disaster.
Personally, I've written my Reps and ALPA's Presidents dozens of letters on why, even if they insist on trading in the poison of outsourcing, that they should write scope language inclusively, so as to be the automatic beneficiaries of any new flying scheme management creates. Instead they have written language by exception and exclusion, using outdated terms and past models which are easy for management to circumvent.
Now we see unbranded regional carriers getting relative seniority SLI results. Air Canada Jazz is operating 757's across oceans. The cat is pretty clearly out of the bag.
Aside from the outsourcing issues, look at where ALPA's nonsensical scope constructs have brought us on seniority and longevity issues? You think I'm joking about Delta pilots working for Bedford? Just look at past trends and draw a line.
Obviously, I don't think that will happen or else I'd be working for him already. But, unless ALPA pulls its collective head out of the sand and address unity, that will be the result. Moak's safe, most of the list figures they'll ride it out until retirement and they'll be safe. If you are under 57 years of age you need:[LIST][*] ALPA to adopt a scope policy that favors ALPA members[*] Delta to develop a model which makes domestic flying profitable (yeah, even if it means small airplanes that pay less than big ones)
Over the last fifteen years ALPA has been told, repeatedly, that their efforts to divide our union along "regional" and "mainline" terms to monetize and bargain in outsourcing was a recipe for disaster.
Personally, I've written my Reps and ALPA's Presidents dozens of letters on why, even if they insist on trading in the poison of outsourcing, that they should write scope language inclusively, so as to be the automatic beneficiaries of any new flying scheme management creates. Instead they have written language by exception and exclusion, using outdated terms and past models which are easy for management to circumvent.
Now we see unbranded regional carriers getting relative seniority SLI results. Air Canada Jazz is operating 757's across oceans. The cat is pretty clearly out of the bag.
Aside from the outsourcing issues, look at where ALPA's nonsensical scope constructs have brought us on seniority and longevity issues? You think I'm joking about Delta pilots working for Bedford? Just look at past trends and draw a line.
Obviously, I don't think that will happen or else I'd be working for him already. But, unless ALPA pulls its collective head out of the sand and address unity, that will be the result. Moak's safe, most of the list figures they'll ride it out until retirement and they'll be safe. If you are under 57 years of age you need:[LIST][*] ALPA to adopt a scope policy that favors ALPA members[*] Delta to develop a model which makes domestic flying profitable (yeah, even if it means small airplanes that pay less than big ones)
Your rant illustrates (yet again) the failure and incompetence of ALPA's legal team that writes this language. ALPA lawyers are absolutely pathetic. We'll never fix this problem until we identify this obvious shortcoming. ALPA lawyers are pathetic. Say it with me now!
Carl
03-20-2011, 07:40 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
H
You understand that management could hang bids monthly using the AE system to achieve the same result, right? For some reason they've chosen not to.
I suspect the biggest influence is economic and fleet driven. We were planned to groiw this year. With $3.20 jet fuel, Japan and the Middle East I can't imagine that's true now. Also, it appears that the MD-90's are coming on line slower
than planned. I'm sure we've got a lot of pilots out of place, remembering that a 1% staffing change equals about 115 pilots.
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Who is they?
The APA was a good system, and allowed for monthly bids, as well as the company to respond more quickly to market conditions. The current 270/365 conversion cycle is simply not responsive enough to adjust for market conditions that can move well within a 6 month cycle. The down side is it allows for position sharpshooting by the company, and if you are near the bottom of any list expect to be bouncing back and forth between requals on any given acft on a sometimes semi-annual basis. The good is that bids come out monthly, albeit smaller, that allows to easily shift between bases, as well as the requirement to be trained 3.5 months from the bid award. Freezes mitigated too much movement, but we also had unlimited reinstatement rights if bumped from a position.
All in all it was some good, some bad, but pilots preferred it over the previous system, similar to the current AE that was abandoned in 98'. It allowed the company to be more nimble both in responding to market conditions as well as metering training loads.
The APA was a good system, and allowed for monthly bids, as well as the company to respond more quickly to market conditions. The current 270/365 conversion cycle is simply not responsive enough to adjust for market conditions that can move well within a 6 month cycle. The down side is it allows for position sharpshooting by the company, and if you are near the bottom of any list expect to be bouncing back and forth between requals on any given acft on a sometimes semi-annual basis. The good is that bids come out monthly, albeit smaller, that allows to easily shift between bases, as well as the requirement to be trained 3.5 months from the bid award. Freezes mitigated too much movement, but we also had unlimited reinstatement rights if bumped from a position.
All in all it was some good, some bad, but pilots preferred it over the previous system, similar to the current AE that was abandoned in 98'. It allowed the company to be more nimble both in responding to market conditions as well as metering training loads.
I suspect the biggest influence is economic and fleet driven. We were planned to groiw this year. With $3.20 jet fuel, Japan and the Middle East I can't imagine that's true now. Also, it appears that the MD-90's are coming on line slower
than planned. I'm sure we've got a lot of pilots out of place, remembering that a 1% staffing change equals about 115 pilots.
03-20-2011, 07:42 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
You forget that the current AE system can do everything the old APA system did, from the company's perspective. They could put one out every month if they wanted to. So the bottom line is they get the best of both worlds, and we don't.
Anyways, who is considering the change and where did you hear this?
03-20-2011, 07:42 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by iceman49
Out of Whitman?
Carl
03-20-2011, 07:47 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
No. Whiteman.
Carl
Carl
03-20-2011, 08:07 AM
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by Check Essential
I hit the MegaBall 37. Won $2.
I once told the other half that I had won 2 grand in Vegas. The response: "so how much did you lose?". "I promise I'll never go to Vegas again.".
03-20-2011, 08:11 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Bar,
Your rant illustrates (yet again) the failure and incompetence of ALPA's legal team that writes this language. ALPA lawyers are absolutely pathetic. We'll never fix this problem until we identify this obvious shortcoming. ALPA lawyers are pathetic. Say it with me now!
Carl
Your rant illustrates (yet again) the failure and incompetence of ALPA's legal team that writes this language. ALPA lawyers are absolutely pathetic. We'll never fix this problem until we identify this obvious shortcoming. ALPA lawyers are pathetic. Say it with me now!
Carl
03-20-2011, 08:18 AM
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by sinca3
How about this, "the ALPA lawyers are good at assuring THIER job protection!"
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