Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-12-2010, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
DAL88;
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
What would you expect them to do if you formed an independent union that went and called them inferior, not worth of your time, etc? I would expect them to do what any person or organization would do, throw it back in your face. Without DAL and UCAL pilots in the same broader organization working towards the same goal of tighter scope, while helping them obtain better contracts along the way, leaves the door open for a radical few to derail the whole process.
Leaving the problem the majors created is the most short sighted action we can take. Isolationsim rarely works. We may be able to get on a pulpit and talk only about our internal issues that effect just us, but the reality is that one of the biggest issues is what this action will create.
As a guy that wants restoration as a stated goal and scope recapture, you should realize that keeping these regionals under DALPA's and UALALPA's broader control is a very wise and strategic move. It allows you to fight a one front versus a multiple front attack on your profession.
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
What would you expect them to do if you formed an independent union that went and called them inferior, not worth of your time, etc? I would expect them to do what any person or organization would do, throw it back in your face. Without DAL and UCAL pilots in the same broader organization working towards the same goal of tighter scope, while helping them obtain better contracts along the way, leaves the door open for a radical few to derail the whole process.
Leaving the problem the majors created is the most short sighted action we can take. Isolationsim rarely works. We may be able to get on a pulpit and talk only about our internal issues that effect just us, but the reality is that one of the biggest issues is what this action will create.
As a guy that wants restoration as a stated goal and scope recapture, you should realize that keeping these regionals under DALPA's and UALALPA's broader control is a very wise and strategic move. It allows you to fight a one front versus a multiple front attack on your profession.
You said the regionals and the majors are better off both being in Alpa. You cite AA and Eagle. What about non union carriers like Skywest? The majors control Alpa regionals and non-union non-alpa regionals through strong scope, not because we are Alpa. Skywest is not in-house but are controlled through scope. It doesn't matter whether we are Alpa, DPA, or APA. We just need strong scope language.
Look at Southwest, are they Alpa? Nope, but they will NEVER give their flying away like we did. Republic is getting bigger because our scope language is weak. Alpa/Dalpa has sat back and watched embraer jets fly overweight with delta pax. This holding company crap is a joke.
Alpa/Dalpa is doing NOTHING on the west coast. Has anyone east of the mississippi seen what has happened to all the flying out there? Look at a route map out of LAX from 2008 and compare it to our current map. All our flying has been OUTSOURCED to Alaska/Horizon. Look at Alaska's route map. It looks like ours once did...hhhmmmm. How has this benefited our pilots? The shareholders may benefit but Buzzpat does not. He just wants to hold onto LAX. Dalpa is giving away his base through a JV.
11-12-2010, 06:43 AM
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Wouldn't it be great if there was a dedicated DPA vs ALPA thread...
11-12-2010, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Deadehad;
Have you read the comments from the republic guys. They are more than willing to do it for less than not just you, but any other regional just to get the flying. Guys outside of your scope of control cannot be held in check. Never. Within ALPA you see no group willingly undercutting each other. Corporations may try but the pilots are not. Look no further than Mesaba to see regional guys fighting back when their flying is being used as a threat to lower their contractual value.
RJET on the other hand (not F9 or YX guys) are willing to under cut their own (YX and F9) as well as majors and regionals all for shiny jets.
Have you read the comments from the republic guys. They are more than willing to do it for less than not just you, but any other regional just to get the flying. Guys outside of your scope of control cannot be held in check. Never. Within ALPA you see no group willingly undercutting each other. Corporations may try but the pilots are not. Look no further than Mesaba to see regional guys fighting back when their flying is being used as a threat to lower their contractual value.
RJET on the other hand (not F9 or YX guys) are willing to under cut their own (YX and F9) as well as majors and regionals all for shiny jets.
ACL,
Reading this statement makes me think that you think the regionals in ALPA are inside our (the Majors) scope of control and can be held in check. If so, how can this not be a DFR issue with ALPA National????
Denny
11-12-2010, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CVG767A
Wouldn't it be great if there was a dedicated DPA vs ALPA thread...
11-12-2010, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Yeah, it's not nearly as satisfying as "destructive rhetoric", but it yields better results.
The debate is whether ALPA should be utilizing this as a tool. With the exception of the usual apologists, the posters on this thread think we should be taking this to the court of public opinion. Not saying this forum is a statistically correct cross section, but the argument has merit.
I'm just waiting for the videos about TSA pedophilia to start being published by disgruntled travellers. That will get ugly. I wonder how many lawsuits will be filed against the TSA in the Ninth Circuit.
11-12-2010, 07:20 AM
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Those new routes to Heathrow from Miami and Boston, will those be on 767-400s or 767-300ER or 757 ERs?
11-12-2010, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CVG767A
Wouldn't it be great if there was a dedicated DPA vs ALPA thread...
11-12-2010, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Nosmo King
Not always. Public opinion is a VERY powerful tool when it escalates into outrage. I'd say right now the TSA is dealing with its version of the Rodney King video. Once enough people see it, the feces will hit the fan and something will get changed in a hurry.
The debate is whether ALPA should be utilizing this as a tool. With the exception of the usual apologists, the posters on this thread think we should be taking this to the court of public opinion. Not saying this forum is a statistically correct cross section, but the argument has merit.
I'm just waiting for the videos about TSA pedophilia to start being published by disgruntled travellers. That will get ugly. I wonder how many lawsuits will be filed against the TSA in the Ninth Circuit.
The debate is whether ALPA should be utilizing this as a tool. With the exception of the usual apologists, the posters on this thread think we should be taking this to the court of public opinion. Not saying this forum is a statistically correct cross section, but the argument has merit.
I'm just waiting for the videos about TSA pedophilia to start being published by disgruntled travellers. That will get ugly. I wonder how many lawsuits will be filed against the TSA in the Ninth Circuit.
I'm not saying that I find Prater's response to be adequate, or that ALPA doesn't need to find a better voice and a better manner of relating to the pilots, but I also don't think the public usually serves us well. The public is usually loyal only to their wallet, and views pilots in general with the same enthusiasm that you and I look at pickpockets and beggars in Istanbul. This only changes when you're their pilot, in which case, for a brief few minutes you hold their life in your hands, and they really, really like you. Then they leave the airplane, to complaint about the service, and you're an overpaid ********* again...
So, stronger message... sure, but court of public opinion... no thanks.
The public needs to be treated to dignity, but we also don't need to let more underwear "surprises" through. How the public is handled (no pun intended) is therefore a matter for the public, and how we are handled is a different issue. Which, by the way, is the whole point: logic demands that we get treated differently, for the reasons we already know.
11-12-2010, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PilotFrog
Those new routes to Heathrow from Miami and Boston, will those be on 767-400s or 767-300ER or 757 ERs?
11-12-2010, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
What many fail to realize is that once you get the regional airlines out from underneath our financial as well as voting influence in the ALPA National structure you will have all of these regionals going after your flying. See RJET and Frontier for a warm up to how bad this will get. Look at AA and Eagle and see what happens when you have two different unions representing pilots under the same corporate structure.
There may be some ugly battles within ALPA, but at Bar states, they are dealt with "In house" and not at the table between three parties. Dump alpa and this is exactly what you will see.
There may be some ugly battles within ALPA, but at Bar states, they are dealt with "In house" and not at the table between three parties. Dump alpa and this is exactly what you will see.
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