Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-12-2010, 05:39 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
This is not about being someone's friend, this is about trying to forge a unified front for the attacks on the profession.
Have mistakes been made? Yes, plenty, but the problems can and should be solved within the confines of the organization.
Restructure ALPA is you must, but keep the organization. Loosely tied independent unions are recipe for disaster. Even CAPA represents some small regionals. How do you think that will progress going forward? Whether or not CAPA wants to admit it, representing more pilots from a as many airlines as possible is the best way to do business, and that is seen even through their actions.
Have mistakes been made? Yes, plenty, but the problems can and should be solved within the confines of the organization.
Restructure ALPA is you must, but keep the organization. Loosely tied independent unions are recipe for disaster. Even CAPA represents some small regionals. How do you think that will progress going forward? Whether or not CAPA wants to admit it, representing more pilots from a as many airlines as possible is the best way to do business, and that is seen even through their actions.
11-12-2010, 05:44 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
DAL88;
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
11-12-2010, 05:45 AM
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Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Deadehad;
Have you read the comments from the republic guys. They are more than willing to do it for less than not just you, but any other regional just to get the flying. Guys outside of your scope of control cannot be held in check. Never. Within ALPA you see no group willingly undercutting each other. Corporations may try but the pilots are not. Look no further than Mesaba to see regional guys fighting back when their flying is being used as a threat to lower their contractual value.
RJET on the other hand (not F9 or YX guys) are willing to under cut their own (YX and F9) as well as majors and regionals all for shiny jets.
Have you read the comments from the republic guys. They are more than willing to do it for less than not just you, but any other regional just to get the flying. Guys outside of your scope of control cannot be held in check. Never. Within ALPA you see no group willingly undercutting each other. Corporations may try but the pilots are not. Look no further than Mesaba to see regional guys fighting back when their flying is being used as a threat to lower their contractual value.
RJET on the other hand (not F9 or YX guys) are willing to under cut their own (YX and F9) as well as majors and regionals all for shiny jets.
11-12-2010, 05:49 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Maybe. But I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot over it.
That is my point, but going independent you would be doing just that. Why would ASA, XJ et al work with DPA when DPA is the result of leaving the good fight and willing stating that they want the flying back all the while not engaging these pilots. Pilots who are in their jobs because of a cutout that the majors created?
Many would say to heck with it, and would do anything in their power to undermine your power base. Conjecture? Maybe but the fact is that they would not see any reason; financial or otherwise, to not do it. If anything ALPA is doing everything it can to keep these guys in check until we can recapture this flying.
11-12-2010, 05:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
DAL88;
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
What would you expect them to do if you formed an independent union that went and called them inferior, not worth of your time, etc? I would expect them to do what any person or organization would do, throw it back in your face. Without DAL and UCAL pilots in the same broader organization working towards the same goal of tighter scope, while helping them obtain better contracts along the way, leaves the door open for a radical few to derail the whole process.
Leaving the problem the majors created is the most short sighted action we can take. Isolationsim rarely works. We may be able to get on a pulpit and talk only about our internal issues that effect just us, but the reality is that one of the biggest issues is what this action will create.
As a guy that wants restoration as a stated goal and scope recapture, you should realize that keeping these regionals under DALPA's and UALALPA's broader control is a very wise and strategic move. It allows you to fight a one front versus a multiple front attack on your profession.
They do, but how would you feel if the guys that you are working with to raise the bottom of the industry while simultaneously recapture scope, bailed on your because they opted to form a independent union where they could literally forget about these pilots? Mad to say the least.
What would you expect them to do if you formed an independent union that went and called them inferior, not worth of your time, etc? I would expect them to do what any person or organization would do, throw it back in your face. Without DAL and UCAL pilots in the same broader organization working towards the same goal of tighter scope, while helping them obtain better contracts along the way, leaves the door open for a radical few to derail the whole process.
Leaving the problem the majors created is the most short sighted action we can take. Isolationsim rarely works. We may be able to get on a pulpit and talk only about our internal issues that effect just us, but the reality is that one of the biggest issues is what this action will create.
As a guy that wants restoration as a stated goal and scope recapture, you should realize that keeping these regionals under DALPA's and UALALPA's broader control is a very wise and strategic move. It allows you to fight a one front versus a multiple front attack on your profession.
11-12-2010, 06:03 AM
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Regional Airlines and Mainline Airlines should NEVER have been lumped together with the same national union in the first place. ALPA National SHOULD have drawn a line in the sand a long time ago with an ironclad, non-negotiable definition of scope separating mainline and regional flying.
The problem as I see it is that somewhere along the line ALPA put it's growth prospects, as an organization, ahead of the needs of it members. ALPA decided to grow for that sake of growing while disregarding the ramifications of representing competitive pilot groups.
Even to this day, ALPA will happily represent a group that continually approves sub-par, industry-lowering contracts, at the expense of under-cutting a struggling pilot group.
ALPA takes 2% from each of its' members and then tells said members that if they want a industry-leading contract they are going to have to fight for it. So that then bears the question...
Why am I paying someone to do a job that they in turn advocate I do myself, while supporting a competing group that is willing to do my job for less???
The way I see it ACL, what you speak of above has ALWAYS been the problem with ALPA as an organization. Sooner or later the person trying to be everybody's friend will indefinitely become everybody's enemy.
The problem as I see it is that somewhere along the line ALPA put it's growth prospects, as an organization, ahead of the needs of it members. ALPA decided to grow for that sake of growing while disregarding the ramifications of representing competitive pilot groups.
Even to this day, ALPA will happily represent a group that continually approves sub-par, industry-lowering contracts, at the expense of under-cutting a struggling pilot group.
ALPA takes 2% from each of its' members and then tells said members that if they want a industry-leading contract they are going to have to fight for it. So that then bears the question...
Why am I paying someone to do a job that they in turn advocate I do myself, while supporting a competing group that is willing to do my job for less???
The way I see it ACL, what you speak of above has ALWAYS been the problem with ALPA as an organization. Sooner or later the person trying to be everybody's friend will indefinitely become everybody's enemy.
11-12-2010, 06:10 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by FlyingViking
Well said, and I agree 100%. On the other note I am also aware that a new union must be chosen when the timing is right, e.g. right after the next contract negotiations.
That is a part of the issue as well. Look at the timeline. They want to dump ALPA prior to section six? How smart is that?
11-12-2010, 06:12 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by FlyingViking
Well said, and I agree 100%. On the other note I am also aware that a new union must be chosen when the timing is right, e.g. right after the next contract negotiations.
There is alot about ALPA that irks me, but not sure this is the best time to start changing representation.
11-12-2010, 06:25 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Actually agree with you, personally I'm still in between going from ALPA to DALPA. Not sure how well this will work as we approach one of the biggest contracts of the past ten years for us.
There is alot about ALPA that irks me, but not sure this is the best time to start changing representation.
There is alot about ALPA that irks me, but not sure this is the best time to start changing representation.
Last edited by DAWGS; 11-12-2010 at 06:53 AM.
11-12-2010, 06:33 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by DAWGS
Fear is why we are in the position we are in today. Too many important decisions have been made based on it. Ask yourself, is our current union fundamentally flawed and beyond repair? Are they representing you? If the answers to those questions are Yes and NO then it is better to fix the problem now. There is plenty of time to prepare for section 6. Please don't base your vote for independent on this hurry timeline ALPA is trying to create. They did the same thing with the joint contract. How did that work out for us? BK wages, weak scope, weak retirement. Don't fall into the same trap.
Thanks for saving me some typing. Well said!
If ALPA does not have an appropriate objective for Section 6 (i.e. restoration), then it is absolutely imperative that we dumped them ASAP.
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