Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-12-2010 | 01:05 PM
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From: right for a long, long time
Capncrunch...You made a valid point...
Re-read it now:
Great post...Really great post....
I edited it to leave the more emotionally charged words out of it, if it changes the OP's intent I apologize.
Re-read it now:
Every time we get into contract negotiations, someone from corporate communications will issue a press release basically saying that all pilots make a million dollars an hour and only work one day a month. When a typical pilot reads this press release he:
A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company
I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.
This leads us to the conflict between current practices and by the webboard crowd that often emote their feelings in public. In current practice, they are trying to influence people you have adopt a strategy that will actually work, rather than one that just allows you to emote. Now we all know that throwing a public tantrum is quite satisfying for a few minutes, and for some it will satisfy their needs totally, but if you embarrass people in public, you better have some other leverage to affect them or you should quit trying. In the case of a government agency, you have no leverage other than to use the power of persuasion and influence to try to get them to amend their decisions. Once you blow them up in public you might as well talk to the wall.
So we have unions like USAPA, that is considered a giant joke by everyone except themselves, that is able to blow up the TSA in public and then they get to go home because they no longer have any influence at all, and the webboard crowd approves.
Now back to the current practices. If you want to retain influence, you have to avoid the route used by USAPA, and you have to continue to try to stay in the game. That means you do not get to trash people in public; you have to try to work through the system. That is what ALPA is doing in this issue with the scanners and that is what they have been doing for years. As the only representative of pilots that has any real influence in Washington, they have to take the high road in public.
In the case of Crew Pass, it was ALPA that introduced legislation mandating that the TSA conduct real world tests of the Crew Pass system. It was ALPA that set up the Crew Pass system tests. When the one vendor chosen for the system tests tried to jack up their prices thinking they had a monopoly, it was ALPA that sponsored a vendors conference to force competition in the system and lowered the price by over 20 fold. Now ALPA has gotten the TSA to approve system wide implementation of Crew Pass, and it is now on ALPA's shoulders to find a way to fund it. Where has USAPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, and the rest been in all of this? AWOL. It is amazing that the only union that has done anything at all on this issue is now tarred because they don't issue severe and criticizing press releases and derail the whole process.
Once again, I write this not to debate the emotionally charged that populate this board but the ones who recognize the strategy undertaken and those that may come here to read and never post.
A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company
I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.
This leads us to the conflict between current practices and by the webboard crowd that often emote their feelings in public. In current practice, they are trying to influence people you have adopt a strategy that will actually work, rather than one that just allows you to emote. Now we all know that throwing a public tantrum is quite satisfying for a few minutes, and for some it will satisfy their needs totally, but if you embarrass people in public, you better have some other leverage to affect them or you should quit trying. In the case of a government agency, you have no leverage other than to use the power of persuasion and influence to try to get them to amend their decisions. Once you blow them up in public you might as well talk to the wall.
So we have unions like USAPA, that is considered a giant joke by everyone except themselves, that is able to blow up the TSA in public and then they get to go home because they no longer have any influence at all, and the webboard crowd approves.
Now back to the current practices. If you want to retain influence, you have to avoid the route used by USAPA, and you have to continue to try to stay in the game. That means you do not get to trash people in public; you have to try to work through the system. That is what ALPA is doing in this issue with the scanners and that is what they have been doing for years. As the only representative of pilots that has any real influence in Washington, they have to take the high road in public.
In the case of Crew Pass, it was ALPA that introduced legislation mandating that the TSA conduct real world tests of the Crew Pass system. It was ALPA that set up the Crew Pass system tests. When the one vendor chosen for the system tests tried to jack up their prices thinking they had a monopoly, it was ALPA that sponsored a vendors conference to force competition in the system and lowered the price by over 20 fold. Now ALPA has gotten the TSA to approve system wide implementation of Crew Pass, and it is now on ALPA's shoulders to find a way to fund it. Where has USAPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, and the rest been in all of this? AWOL. It is amazing that the only union that has done anything at all on this issue is now tarred because they don't issue severe and criticizing press releases and derail the whole process.
Once again, I write this not to debate the emotionally charged that populate this board but the ones who recognize the strategy undertaken and those that may come here to read and never post.
I edited it to leave the more emotionally charged words out of it, if it changes the OP's intent I apologize.
11-12-2010 | 01:08 PM
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11-12-2010 | 01:12 PM
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From: right for a long, long time
I tried to keep it as neutral as able.
11-12-2010 | 01:18 PM
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1 for 3.5 kicks in on 6 days with low leg time. They are normally worth somewhere around 33 to 34 hours depending on report and release. 7 days jump up to around 40. We have had the low time 6 days before. 33 hours is not great but on the good side the trips are normally very easy on the body with the short legs.
11-12-2010 | 01:25 PM
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Yet I still remain open minded. You on the other hand lean so heavily one way, Hell-bent on proving the ALPA way is ALWAYS the best way, your judgment appears severely clouded.
You will defend the "Mothership" to the bitter end. Instead of looking for the best answer overall and listening to what the pilots around you are saying you insist upon defending ALPA who is dropping the ball. You loose credibility in doing so. Stating that ALPA needs just a little buff work and elbow grease here and there is not an accurate depiction of the state of this union.
National reps electing Moak and the direction DALPA's top leadership seems to be headed are just more signs we should get ready to be underwhelmed in the decisions they make for us and the ensuing beat down we get from those who want to take more from us. WAKE UP! This career has already taken a severe beating. If my insurance company isn't representing me in a responsible manner then in the end they will get fired.
11-12-2010 | 01:48 PM
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Wow! Pot. Meet kettle. Kettle. Meet pot.
ALPA brings most of this on themselves. While the other groups that represent airline employees are taking action and communicating, Alpa is....not. Unfortunately that is the norm for them whether at the MEC level or most noticeably at the National level.
Even if they had sent an email, robo call, anything along the lines of "we are working with folks in DC so please sit on your hands and we will be back to you with details in ( fill in the time frame)" they would be ahead.
Communicating effectively is a basic and critical fundamental for any orgnaization, corporation, or relationship. To communicate effectively, information has to be able to travel up and down, be received and then be aknowledged.
When people and organizations in the chain of communication start looking at the others within the group with contempt, game over. ALPA won't survive in its current state if they do not address this.
ALPA brings most of this on themselves. While the other groups that represent airline employees are taking action and communicating, Alpa is....not. Unfortunately that is the norm for them whether at the MEC level or most noticeably at the National level.
Even if they had sent an email, robo call, anything along the lines of "we are working with folks in DC so please sit on your hands and we will be back to you with details in ( fill in the time frame)" they would be ahead.
Communicating effectively is a basic and critical fundamental for any orgnaization, corporation, or relationship. To communicate effectively, information has to be able to travel up and down, be received and then be aknowledged.
When people and organizations in the chain of communication start looking at the others within the group with contempt, game over. ALPA won't survive in its current state if they do not address this.
There have been numerous stories in the media over the past several days regarding privacy and other considerations as relate to security screening by Advanced Imaging Technology (AIT) systems. In response to numerous inquiries from ALPA members and media, the Association issued a statement today to provide our views on this contentious AIT issue. In its statement ALPA also alluded to the controversial issue of the effectiveness and necessity of applying passenger screening processes to professional airline flightdeck crews.
ALPA over the past 2 years has advocated strongly that airline pilots needed to be removed from the indignity of passenger-style security screening and instead go through a pilot dedicated screening line utilizing the ALPA-developed concept of Crew Personnel Advanced Screening System (CrewPASS). ALPA has been successful in obtaining TSA approval and support for the CrewPASS system and we are looking for opportunities to press for broader implementation of this very important initiative. The following are just a few of the many actions taken by ALPA to advance CrewPASS over the past several months:
· The Board of Directors reaffirmed its strong support for implementation of CrewPASS at all carriers.
· Due to ALPA’s influence, one major ALPA airline has signed a contract with a CrewPASS service provider, and other airlines are giving it serious consideration.
· ALPA’s President, Capt. John Prater, wrote directly to each airline CEO/President and encouraged them to implement CrewPASS.
· ALPA’s National Security Committee created an ad hoc CrewPASS consortium comprised of airline management and ALPA pilot representatives. This consortium developed implementation standards and created an opportunity for more vendors to enter this market, which has resulted in greater competition, better service offerings, and lower implementation costs for airline customers. CrewPASS vendors are actively marketing their services to the airlines.
ALPA is confident that its tireless efforts will ultimately result in nationwide implementation of CrewPASS. Please direct any questions or comments that you may have about CrewPASS to the Engineering & Air Safety department (800-424-2470).
ALPA over the past 2 years has advocated strongly that airline pilots needed to be removed from the indignity of passenger-style security screening and instead go through a pilot dedicated screening line utilizing the ALPA-developed concept of Crew Personnel Advanced Screening System (CrewPASS). ALPA has been successful in obtaining TSA approval and support for the CrewPASS system and we are looking for opportunities to press for broader implementation of this very important initiative. The following are just a few of the many actions taken by ALPA to advance CrewPASS over the past several months:
· The Board of Directors reaffirmed its strong support for implementation of CrewPASS at all carriers.
· Due to ALPA’s influence, one major ALPA airline has signed a contract with a CrewPASS service provider, and other airlines are giving it serious consideration.
· ALPA’s President, Capt. John Prater, wrote directly to each airline CEO/President and encouraged them to implement CrewPASS.
· ALPA’s National Security Committee created an ad hoc CrewPASS consortium comprised of airline management and ALPA pilot representatives. This consortium developed implementation standards and created an opportunity for more vendors to enter this market, which has resulted in greater competition, better service offerings, and lower implementation costs for airline customers. CrewPASS vendors are actively marketing their services to the airlines.
ALPA is confident that its tireless efforts will ultimately result in nationwide implementation of CrewPASS. Please direct any questions or comments that you may have about CrewPASS to the Engineering & Air Safety department (800-424-2470).
Irony meet the The Manager, The Manager meet irony.
11-12-2010 | 02:22 PM
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From: Legacy FO
11-12-2010 | 02:28 PM
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From: B-7ER JFK
11-12-2010 | 02:30 PM
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Well stop doing it then. I have acknowledged the good within ALPA. I keep giving them more chances and month after month but find myself even more frustrated.
Yet I still remain open minded. You on the other hand lean so heavily one way, Hell-bent on proving the ALPA way is ALWAYS the best way, your judgment appears severely clouded.
You will defend the "Mothership" to the bitter end. Instead of looking for the best answer overall and listening to what the pilots around you are saying you insist upon defending ALPA who is dropping the ball. You loose credibility in doing so. Stating that ALPA needs just a little buff work and elbow grease here and there is not an accurate depiction of the state of this union.
National reps electing Moak and the direction DALPA's top leadership seems to be headed are just more signs we should get ready to be underwhelmed in the decisions they make for us and the ensuing beat down we get from those who want to take more from us. WAKE UP! This career has already taken a severe beating. If my insurance company isn't representing me in a responsible manner then in the end they will get fired.
Yet I still remain open minded. You on the other hand lean so heavily one way, Hell-bent on proving the ALPA way is ALWAYS the best way, your judgment appears severely clouded.
You will defend the "Mothership" to the bitter end. Instead of looking for the best answer overall and listening to what the pilots around you are saying you insist upon defending ALPA who is dropping the ball. You loose credibility in doing so. Stating that ALPA needs just a little buff work and elbow grease here and there is not an accurate depiction of the state of this union.
National reps electing Moak and the direction DALPA's top leadership seems to be headed are just more signs we should get ready to be underwhelmed in the decisions they make for us and the ensuing beat down we get from those who want to take more from us. WAKE UP! This career has already taken a severe beating. If my insurance company isn't representing me in a responsible manner then in the end they will get fired.
As for this "defending the mothership to the bitter end" nonsense, it presumes I lack judgement, and I simply don't accept it. It's particularly ironic that you ascribe open-mindedness to yourself, but deny me the benefit of the doubt in the same category.
Also, you give me far too little credit when you suggest my position is that "a little buff work and elbow grease" will do the trick. Never have I said anything of the kind. I'm not talking about Mary-Poppins-singing-a-spoonfull-of-sugar-makes-the-medicine-go-down kind of stuff. I'm talking about a true change of philosophy, in terms of MEMRAT, Chairman Elections, and true, intelligent two-way communications starting with polling where the union doesn't suppress a survey because they don't like the results, and a good, simple effective way telling us what's going on, and giving us options before things happen, not a brief afterthought narrative about what was done in a "father-knows-best" sort of way.
Still, I think ALPA does good work in general, and this MEC has served us well, but they are not connecting with the pilots. I've also previously said that I think Constructive Engagement has yielded results, but that it is always one step away from Stockholm Syndrome, ergo the reps need supervision. And since I feel that about 1/3 of union people are in there for the wrong reasons, we need to watch them closely, and cylce new people through often enough.
The main thrust of my argument, however, is that what is sorely lacking is true participation by the pilots. That is the medicine that will cure the system. Apathy and poor communications have given maneuvering room to a group that is even more flawed than ALPA could ever be, with dubious motives, and little chance of delivering any result. As such, it is my opinion that ALPA needs to be re-directed, but not replaced.
Your metaphor WRT insurance companies is poor, because any lawyer will tell you that all insurance coverage is about the same: it's the marketing and pricing that varies. That's not true for unions. It's also poor because you presume you can simply fire one, and immediately get another that is equal or better. The only thing that has been proposed of late is clearly an inferior option. And so far, I'm trapped between people that look to be representing the establishment, and people that look to be representatives of the competition. I don't see a lot of legitimate attempts to actually reform or improve what we actually have. Or any group that will truly speak to the Delta pilots, and hear them clearly. Those are the groups I want to associate with, but where are they?
11-12-2010 | 02:40 PM
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Every time we get into contract negotiations, some buttwipe from corporate communications will issue a press release basically saying that all pilots make a million dollars an hour and only work one day a month. When a typical pilot reads this press release he:
A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company
I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.
A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company
I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.
I'll lift this from a response to a post I made yesterday. Here's what I wrote....
Why does a harsh, responsive message have to be viewed as a public punch in the face? Surely, with the amount of talent we have, we can craft a message that gets our point across without hurting the other party's feelings. Hell, maybe it will even teach the powers that be to think before the legislate the next time.
Sometimes you have to let out a bark to let people know there is a dog in the yard.....
Sometimes you have to let out a bark to let people know there is a dog in the yard.....
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