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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 979784)
GMAB.
Look at how we are shifting airplanes this fall....... Also, I was not referring to a plus or minus five to seven percent, I was talking about a 20-30% decrease in our market presence which would equate to DCI flying as well as a great deal of mainline narrow gauge flying. I was directly referring to the layering of these DCI agreements and their expiration dates. OK.. so now we are just negotiating the price.... I would think that a 5 to 7 percent pulldown is significant. I guess I am wrong. |
Dear Skywest,
Here is the greenlight you've been hoping for. We here at Delta Air Lines and the pilot group via ALPA National and DALPA would like you to know you can start a new airline! Fly Airbuses A330s, or used 764s, or 744s and buy big domestic aircraft like 737s or 320s or whatever you like! But you need to name your new airline something unique... like Skywest Airlines. Now the key is you need to put the larger jets and dispatch operations under a new certificate called Big Skywest Inc. Good news! You can move pilots back and forth from your CPA operations to Big Skywest as much you want, but they need to go to indoc to make it a seperate certificate. If you end up with ASA, Skywest and Expressjet as one then no worries, all still legal. So good luck to you and we hope you do as well as Republic! By the way you can have our money from the CPA operations for Delta to assist your new venture or any acquistions of other airlines you need to do. Also you're not in violation of the DALPA scope clause as you obviously are operating non-permitted aircraft that seat less than 97 passengers, so you're good to go! And no, ALPA won't sue you for violating scope. That'd be hypocritical as we're just fine with RAH doing this very same thing! You're going to do great, we just know it! http://www.chinaenvironmentallaw.com...reen-light.png |
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 979780)
Markets aren't wrong. They just are. Your hypothetical confuses micro vs macro. If the micro really mattered that much the actuarials would demand higher experienced and thus higher priced labor. Every try for a corporate job as PIC? Why are their minimums (in my experience) 5000 hours? Insurance.
Best paid Doctors today are Radiologists. 600K or so to start with a health care system and 17 weeks of vacation. Trust me I know this as it was what a close friend was paying to hire them. As more Docs enter this skill set the forces will readjust. As for what you quoted. We have a tremendous responsibility, and not one that we should diminish. even if everyone else wants to. It is a responsibility that the passengers do not necessarily want to pay for because we as an industry have conditioned them that they do not have to. Doctors are doing it too with PA's etc. We see them as good enough without a serious risk to our well being. It comes with doing your job well almost all of the time and it becomes routine. Routine for you and for the market in which you work. That said, we as pilots need to realize the danger of diminishing what we do. It effects us at the ticket counter and at the negotiating table. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 979788)
OK.. so now we are just negotiating the price.... I would think that a 5 to 7 percent pulldown is significant. I guess I am wrong.
It is, but it was not what I am referring to. I was referring to the DCI lift and the layering of contracts. Look at what is coming to market. DAL is position itself for a next gen airframe and does not want to be completely tied to the last gen RJ's. Also FWIW, it is a 3-4% pulldown this fall. the plus and minus 5-7% is what we have seen in the post CH11 era. It is capacity discipline and we as a group have not seen anyone furloughed from it. Also realize that much of it has been the DCI jets they can remove from service as well as the DC-9's. You are arguing just to argue. It was not the thrust of the point. If anything being aggressive on capacity discipline has kept the margins relatively positive and losses to a minimum. We as pilots may not like it, but it is a sound business plan. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 979773)
Call BS all you want. Emotionally I am with you. I see no reason to support an airline that has a pilot group that is not represented by ALPA. (BTW I hope we can bring them in to ALPA as they are the biggest risk to an end-round to our Section one via feed to other skyteam partners.) I do not like what many of the RJET pilot say when I talk to them. Most are tickled pink to fly a 190 for 116 or less and hr and hope we keep selling scope. It is a group that does not see the forest from the trees.
All of that said, until this ruling cause an operational or structural change to the business entity known as RJET. Until these pilots can bid across certificates without going though a initial indoc. Until the certificates are managed on a day to day basis by the holding company, little has changed except that the pilot group is seen as one. It does not change the mechanics of it. I will be the first to agree that it is BS, but BS or not it is legal under what we define as an air carrier. Until it can be proven that these certificate management teams are not managing their own certificate and BB is doing it from the holding company, there is little leverage. I do know that our Code Share compliance committee has looked and will continue to look at Republic very closely. The reps are very aware of the "heartburn" the pilot group has over this, and will not give them anymore leeway than they already have. All of that said, we as pilots must watch and be vigilant in reporting anything we see on this. Facts and proof will be needed. Exactly, but it can and we are watching. This latest agreement was for six years. If that does not tell this group anything we need to pay more attention. DAL is actively layering these agreements. I do not believe DAL is planing on shrinking in the next five or so years, so let look at what else may be coming to market. I know if I were a regional pilot that wanted to make a place like Republic my home, I would be very concerned by the actions and duration of these new agreements. I then would change my career strategy. Unless we willfully sell the farm, the landscape of the airlines will change yet again, in the next ten years. All of it will be because of a steadfast commitment not to sell scope, and the economics that will make the DCI gauge segment of the market so unprofitable, no one will want to continue to operate these jets. (This is of course until they hang a GTF off of a E-Jet.) A sunset clause solves all of these issues. Acl, I assure you it isn't emotions. It is having had a front row seat over the last 25 years. Watching Alpa advertise and "sell" each and every contract. Alpa has gotten exactly what they wanted from the rank and file. I can't remember a contract or strike vote that didn't follow the recommendations of Alpa leadership. Much of that "sell job" involved telling me what an ironclad scope clause we had, and how they would protect it. And now we have Buzz telling us to " pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Fool me once......... |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 979789)
Dear Skywest,
Here is the greenlight you've been hoping for. We here at Delta Air Lines and the pilot group via ALPA National and DALPA would like you to know you can start a new airline to fly Airbuses A330s, or used 764s, or 744s if you like and buy big domestic aircraft like 737s or 320s and name your new airline something unique like Skywest Airlines. Now the key is you need to put the larger jets and dispatch operations under a new certificate called Big Skywest Inc. Good news! You can move pilots back and forth from your CPA operations to Big Skywest as much you want, but they need to go to indoc to make it a seperate certificate. If you end up with ASA, Skywest and Expressjet as one then no worries, all still legal. So good luck to you and we hope you do as well as Republic! By the way you can have our money from the CPA operations for Delta to assist your new venture or any acquistions of other airlines you need to do. Also you're not in violation of the DALPA scope clause as you obviously are operating non-permitted aircraft that seat less than 97 passengers, so you're good to go! And no, ALPA won't sue you for violating scope. That'd be hypocritical as we're just fine with RAH doing this very same thing! You're going to do great, we just know it! http://www.chinaenvironmentallaw.com...reen-light.png Funny FTB, but the reality is that DAL pilots and the merged group have both voted for this. If you recall the RJET operation was set up this way before the JPWA was voted on. You are correct they can do whatever they want as long as it does not operate the DAL code. Economically speaking RJET is realizing how hard that is. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 979797)
F Economically speaking RJET is realizing how hard that is.
Interesting..... |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 979793)
You are arguing just to argue. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 979778)
And what difference pray tell would that make?
Oh yeah.... we need the dues... It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy. You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 979797)
Funny FTB, but the reality is that DAL pilots and the merged group have both voted for this. If you recall the RJET operation was set up this way before the JPWA was voted on.
And what exactly did the pilots vote on anyway? I think the intent of that section of the PWA is pretty clear. If you show our contract to a line pilot and then show them the NMB ruling, I think most would agree that they are in violation. We voted on one thing, and APLA is giving us something else. The NMB made it clear that RJET is considered one carrier, regardless of how many certificates they may own. |
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