Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-13-2011, 08:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: B744 F/O
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Call BS all you want. Emotionally I am with you. I see no reason to support an airline that has a pilot group that is not represented by ALPA. (BTW I hope we can bring them in to ALPA as they are the biggest risk to an end-round to our Section one via feed to other skyteam partners.) I do not like what many of the RJET pilot say when I talk to them. Most are tickled pink to fly a 190 for 116 or less and hr and hope we keep selling scope. It is a group that does not see the forest from the trees.
All of that said, until this ruling cause an operational or structural change to the business entity known as RJET. Until these pilots can bid across certificates without going though a initial indoc. Until the certificates are managed on a day to day basis by the holding company, little has changed except that the pilot group is seen as one. It does not change the mechanics of it.
I will be the first to agree that it is BS, but BS or not it is legal under what we define as an air carrier. Until it can be proven that these certificate management teams are not managing their own certificate and BB is doing it from the holding company, there is little leverage. I do know that our Code Share compliance committee has looked and will continue to look at Republic very closely. The reps are very aware of the "heartburn" the pilot group has over this, and will not give them anymore leeway than they already have.
All of that said, we as pilots must watch and be vigilant in reporting anything we see on this. Facts and proof will be needed.
Exactly, but it can and we are watching. This latest agreement was for six years. If that does not tell this group anything we need to pay more attention. DAL is actively layering these agreements. I do not believe DAL is planing on shrinking in the next five or so years, so let look at what else may be coming to market.
I know if I were a regional pilot that wanted to make a place like Republic my home, I would be very concerned by the actions and duration of these new agreements. I then would change my career strategy.
Unless we willfully sell the farm, the landscape of the airlines will change yet again, in the next ten years. All of it will be because of a steadfast commitment not to sell scope, and the economics that will make the DCI gauge segment of the market so unprofitable, no one will want to continue to operate these jets. (This is of course until they hang a GTF off of a E-Jet.)
A sunset clause solves all of these issues.
All of that said, until this ruling cause an operational or structural change to the business entity known as RJET. Until these pilots can bid across certificates without going though a initial indoc. Until the certificates are managed on a day to day basis by the holding company, little has changed except that the pilot group is seen as one. It does not change the mechanics of it.
I will be the first to agree that it is BS, but BS or not it is legal under what we define as an air carrier. Until it can be proven that these certificate management teams are not managing their own certificate and BB is doing it from the holding company, there is little leverage. I do know that our Code Share compliance committee has looked and will continue to look at Republic very closely. The reps are very aware of the "heartburn" the pilot group has over this, and will not give them anymore leeway than they already have.
All of that said, we as pilots must watch and be vigilant in reporting anything we see on this. Facts and proof will be needed.
Exactly, but it can and we are watching. This latest agreement was for six years. If that does not tell this group anything we need to pay more attention. DAL is actively layering these agreements. I do not believe DAL is planing on shrinking in the next five or so years, so let look at what else may be coming to market.
I know if I were a regional pilot that wanted to make a place like Republic my home, I would be very concerned by the actions and duration of these new agreements. I then would change my career strategy.
Unless we willfully sell the farm, the landscape of the airlines will change yet again, in the next ten years. All of it will be because of a steadfast commitment not to sell scope, and the economics that will make the DCI gauge segment of the market so unprofitable, no one will want to continue to operate these jets. (This is of course until they hang a GTF off of a E-Jet.)
A sunset clause solves all of these issues.
Acl, I assure you it isn't emotions. It is having had a front row seat over the last 25 years. Watching Alpa advertise and "sell" each and every contract. Alpa has gotten exactly what they wanted from the rank and file. I can't remember a contract or strike vote that didn't follow the recommendations of Alpa leadership. Much of that "sell job" involved telling me what an ironclad scope clause we had, and how they would protect it. And now we have Buzz telling us to " pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Fool me once.........
04-13-2011, 08:50 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Dear Skywest,
Here is the greenlight you've been hoping for. We here at Delta Air Lines and the pilot group via ALPA National and DALPA would like you to know you can start a new airline to fly Airbuses A330s, or used 764s, or 744s if you like and buy big domestic aircraft like 737s or 320s and name your new airline something unique like Skywest Airlines.
Now the key is you need to put the larger jets and dispatch operations under a new certificate called Big Skywest Inc. Good news! You can move pilots back and forth from your CPA operations to Big Skywest as much you want, but they need to go to indoc to make it a seperate certificate. If you end up with ASA, Skywest and Expressjet as one then no worries, all still legal.
So good luck to you and we hope you do as well as Republic! By the way you can have our money from the CPA operations for Delta to assist your new venture or any acquistions of other airlines you need to do. Also you're not in violation of the DALPA scope clause as you obviously are operating non-permitted aircraft that seat less than 97 passengers, so you're good to go! And no, ALPA won't sue you for violating scope. That'd be hypocritical as we're just fine with RAH doing this very same thing!
You're going to do great, we just know it!
Here is the greenlight you've been hoping for. We here at Delta Air Lines and the pilot group via ALPA National and DALPA would like you to know you can start a new airline to fly Airbuses A330s, or used 764s, or 744s if you like and buy big domestic aircraft like 737s or 320s and name your new airline something unique like Skywest Airlines.
Now the key is you need to put the larger jets and dispatch operations under a new certificate called Big Skywest Inc. Good news! You can move pilots back and forth from your CPA operations to Big Skywest as much you want, but they need to go to indoc to make it a seperate certificate. If you end up with ASA, Skywest and Expressjet as one then no worries, all still legal.
So good luck to you and we hope you do as well as Republic! By the way you can have our money from the CPA operations for Delta to assist your new venture or any acquistions of other airlines you need to do. Also you're not in violation of the DALPA scope clause as you obviously are operating non-permitted aircraft that seat less than 97 passengers, so you're good to go! And no, ALPA won't sue you for violating scope. That'd be hypocritical as we're just fine with RAH doing this very same thing!
You're going to do great, we just know it!
Funny FTB, but the reality is that DAL pilots and the merged group have both voted for this. If you recall the RJET operation was set up this way before the JPWA was voted on.
You are correct they can do whatever they want as long as it does not operate the DAL code. Economically speaking RJET is realizing how hard that is.
04-13-2011, 08:52 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
F Economically speaking RJET is realizing how hard that is.
Interesting.....
04-13-2011, 08:54 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
You are arguing just to argue.
04-13-2011, 09:00 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by tsquare
And what difference pray tell would that make?
Oh yeah.... we need the dues...
Oh yeah.... we need the dues...
It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy.
You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters.
04-13-2011, 09:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Funny FTB, but the reality is that DAL pilots and the merged group have both voted for this. If you recall the RJET operation was set up this way before the JPWA was voted on.
And what exactly did the pilots vote on anyway? I think the intent of that section of the PWA is pretty clear. If you show our contract to a line pilot and then show them the NMB ruling, I think most would agree that they are in violation. We voted on one thing, and APLA is giving us something else. The NMB made it clear that RJET is considered one carrier, regardless of how many certificates they may own.
04-13-2011, 09:07 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
No something greater than the almighty buck; pilots dealing with pilot internally and not at the table with the company.
It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy.
You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters.
It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy.
You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters.
04-13-2011, 09:10 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by tsquare
Somewhat true because I am a little stir crazy... but I don't see those contracts disappearing very quickly... I mean, I only have 15 years left...
Because of this we need a different strategy. On that is low to zero cost at the table. One that the senior pilots can see as not taking money from them. Sun-setting these agreements is the first step, and then continually lowering the cap of allowable jets is the other. It is a measured pull down.
04-13-2011, 09:23 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Dash8widget
I think RJET bought Frontier in mid 2009, which would be after after the JPWA was voted on - correct?
And what exactly did the pilots vote on anyway? I think the intent of that section of the PWA is pretty clear. If you show our contract to a line pilot and then show them the NMB ruling, I think most would agree that they are in violation. We voted on one thing, and APLA is giving us something else. The NMB made it clear that RJET is considered one carrier, regardless of how many certificates they may own.
And what exactly did the pilots vote on anyway? I think the intent of that section of the PWA is pretty clear. If you show our contract to a line pilot and then show them the NMB ruling, I think most would agree that they are in violation. We voted on one thing, and APLA is giving us something else. The NMB made it clear that RJET is considered one carrier, regardless of how many certificates they may own.
One could argue is that we didn't know how they were going to set up the operation but one thing for sure is Republic bought their E190s from UsAir on 14OCT09:
Republic Airways to Acquire 10 Embraer 190AR Aircraft from US Airways
According to our contract:
If a carrier that performs category A (which is CPA operations which is Republic) or category C operations (American Eagle in LAX) acquires an aircraft that would cause the Company to no longer be in compliance with the provisions of Section 1 D. 2. c., (E190s sat 99 seats, 97 was the max) the Company will terminate such operations on the date that is the later of the date such aircraft is placed in revenue service, or nine months from the date that the Company first became aware of the potential acquisition (July 2010).
(like Icrew, trying to use every possible combination of dates as I can)
04-13-2011, 09:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
No something greater than the almighty buck; pilots dealing with pilot internally and not at the table with the company.
It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy.
You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters.
It is my belief that at some point RJET left to their own devices will try to challenge exclusivity rights of its mainline counterparts. They will try to fly whatever they can to a a alliance flight totally going around a mainline section one. It will be divisive and a last ditch effort to save themselves. If they are part of ALPA, it will not be tolerated. It is also the same reason what the DCI's that are within ALPA are not trying the same thing. Keeping all pilots under the same National banner allows us the ability to resist being our own worst enemy.
You may not buy that, but being wrong would be very costly. Even the RJDC issue was an internal ALPA issue. I prefer that any day to dealing with the company on these matters.
Then tell me why in the world the pilots at RJET would ever vote in ALPA as their union knowing that they would not allow their goals.
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