Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-30-2011, 06:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by newKnow
NERD ALERT (Like myself):
Gettysburg is on the History Channel -- right now.
(I'm sure my wife is sick of this by now.
)
Gettysburg is on the History Channel -- right now.
(I'm sure my wife is sick of this by now.
)
05-30-2011, 06:52 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Who wins? 
.....
.....
05-30-2011, 06:58 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Just finished watching "Taking Chance" on HBO, a story about a Marine LtCol, played by Kevin Bacon, who escorts the remains of a Marine killed in Iraq back to Wyoming. Very moving.
At the end for Memorial Day, HBO scrolled the names of every American killed in combat since 2001.
Please see it if you haven't already.
At the end for Memorial Day, HBO scrolled the names of every American killed in combat since 2001.
Please see it if you haven't already.
05-30-2011, 07:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by columbia
just finished watching "taking chance" on hbo, a story about a marine ltcol, played by kevin bacon, who escorts the remains of a marine killed in iraq back to wyoming. Very moving.
At the end for memorial day, hbo scrolled the names of every american killed in combat since 2001.
Please see it if you haven't already.
At the end for memorial day, hbo scrolled the names of every american killed in combat since 2001.
Please see it if you haven't already.
05-30-2011, 08:15 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
I'll admit to have taken some editorial license and including reference to a rumor, but the unauthorized version is more accurate than the justifications given for ALPA's actions which put Delta pilots on the street (and which could put them there again). Basically, your version is the Delta MEC was incapable of doing what the Pinnacle MEC did with Colgan.
With three part harmony you each accept alter ego replacement of our pilots. Using your logic, if the Delta board decides to join a "SkyTeam" conglomerate it is up to management's whim how they staff their airline.
As you know, Delta is permitted to operate feeder airlines under our contract. Our contract defines what is Delta pilots' flying and (unfortunately) what is not Delta flying. Your quote that the Delta pilots "have no say at all" just is not true. DALPA could, if it wanted, close the scope loophole it created & ratified. (granted it might not be pragmatic to try to close the loophole, but we do have a say in the matter)
Management does decide whether it wants to merge corporations, but labor has the legal right to fight alter ego replacement of workers. A right given to us under the alter ego provisions of the National Labor Relations Act and which have been upheld in many circumsptances under the RLA. ALPA has chosen when it wants to merge employee groups and when it does not. In the case of ASA and Comair, ALPA chose not to merge pilots at the 2000 ALPA Board of Directors' meeting. A result of that decision was the furloughing of Delta pilots later in the decade while the alter ego replacement carriers proliferated.
Your thinking would be disastrous if Delta announced the sale of our company to SkyTeam Air Lines and the French leadership decided to replace our seniority list with (pick your alter ego). Perhaps you can not imagine a scenario where D-ALPA isn't the king maker. Yet there may be a day when Delta isn't the consolidator.
If karma exists (and I think it exists in your pronouncements of our impotence) ... we're screwed. I would hope you would reassess the threat of alter ego, as well as our role in its creation and elimination.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
"Management merges companies, pilots do not."
Originally Posted by sailingfun
DALPA has no say at all in a choice to merge those airlines. We don't today and never did. Management decides to merge companies not pilots unless we have specific clauses in our contract.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
A PID wasn't initiated because Delta management had the right operate ASA separately and they did not want to merge the two entities. The people that own and run the companies make these decisions, not the employees. It is that simple..
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Delta was and is permitted to operate feeder airlines. DALPA has no say at all in a choice to merge those airlines.
Management does decide whether it wants to merge corporations, but labor has the legal right to fight alter ego replacement of workers. A right given to us under the alter ego provisions of the National Labor Relations Act and which have been upheld in many circumsptances under the RLA. ALPA has chosen when it wants to merge employee groups and when it does not. In the case of ASA and Comair, ALPA chose not to merge pilots at the 2000 ALPA Board of Directors' meeting. A result of that decision was the furloughing of Delta pilots later in the decade while the alter ego replacement carriers proliferated.
Your thinking would be disastrous if Delta announced the sale of our company to SkyTeam Air Lines and the French leadership decided to replace our seniority list with (pick your alter ego). Perhaps you can not imagine a scenario where D-ALPA isn't the king maker. Yet there may be a day when Delta isn't the consolidator.
If karma exists (and I think it exists in your pronouncements of our impotence) ... we're screwed. I would hope you would reassess the threat of alter ego, as well as our role in its creation and elimination.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-31-2011 at 07:43 AM.
05-30-2011, 08:48 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
So... everyone have a fun memorial day?
05-30-2011, 08:58 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
First, no one wants to make it easy to violate scope, so I don't know why you start with this emotional statement. Both the DAL and NWA contracts allowed management to own subsidiaries as long as those subsidiaries flew permitted aircraft. ASA, Comair, Compass, Mesaba, were all examples of this. Now I understand your argument that this is NOT how you want our Section 1 to read, but in fact Section 1 was not violated by any of those transactions, at either airline, so let's not start with a scope violation.
05-30-2011, 09:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by Mesabah
80 you're thinking as a pilot and are forgetting the management side of the equation as well as the legal side of it.
We pilots assign a hierarchy to our profession, that being:
student -> private -> commercial -> flight instructor -> regional -> mainline -> astronaut -> NewK
However, the legal system and management don't see it that way. All they see are:
Current rates of pay -> career expectations
The problem lies in the career expectations, since management can tweak this in favor of the regional pilots if they want leverage against mainline pilots.
Imagine I was management at Delta and wanted to get concessions out of your group. All I have to do is say I will merge you guys with Comair and you are pretty much forced into those concessions. However, as management I can't overstep to the point you guys start voting with your feet.
Merging with Comair might not seem as bad as it sounds, but remember as management I still have 76 seat scope relief so after all is said and done I can send their planes to Skywest. However, before I do that I set Comair's contract rates to $500 an hour, which doesn't matter since the planes are going away. But this puts them in a position to have all of Delta stapled below them in a SLI. This is since both their current rates and career expectations are now way above that of any mainline pilot.
We pilots assign a hierarchy to our profession, that being:
student -> private -> commercial -> flight instructor -> regional -> mainline -> astronaut -> NewK
However, the legal system and management don't see it that way. All they see are:
Current rates of pay -> career expectations
The problem lies in the career expectations, since management can tweak this in favor of the regional pilots if they want leverage against mainline pilots.
Imagine I was management at Delta and wanted to get concessions out of your group. All I have to do is say I will merge you guys with Comair and you are pretty much forced into those concessions. However, as management I can't overstep to the point you guys start voting with your feet.
Merging with Comair might not seem as bad as it sounds, but remember as management I still have 76 seat scope relief so after all is said and done I can send their planes to Skywest. However, before I do that I set Comair's contract rates to $500 an hour, which doesn't matter since the planes are going away. But this puts them in a position to have all of Delta stapled below them in a SLI. This is since both their current rates and career expectations are now way above that of any mainline pilot.
dumbest. idea. evar.
05-30-2011, 09:24 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Gloopy,
He's just illustrating the absurdity of the idea the "management decides to merge airlines, we have no say in the matter" with a silly example.
He's just illustrating the absurdity of the idea the "management decides to merge airlines, we have no say in the matter" with a silly example.
05-30-2011, 10:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Hey Figmo,
Good to meet ya in LAX this morning! APC reunion......I vote FTB party planner :-)
Ferd
Good to meet ya in LAX this morning! APC reunion......I vote FTB party planner :-)
Ferd
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