Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-26-2011, 01:55 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by cni187
Almost as sexy as underboob. It also makes climbing in the Mad Dog depressing
Wow.... really? OK.. for $60/hour... the left seat is yours. Wanna rethink that "sexy" comment? Personally I find nothing about a bunch of designers engineering me into an airplane as a redundant system as being "sexy". Yup.. Boeing guy here... always have been... and God (And Delta Air Lines) willing, always will be.
06-26-2011, 01:57 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by threeighteen
Sidestick is marketed to increase safety? whaaa 
Also, got to love:
"RNP0.1 capability: allows the aircraft to fly routes with great precision"
Subtle indication of the future?
Also, got to love:
"RNP0.1 capability: allows the aircraft to fly routes with great precision"
Subtle indication of the future?
Yup.. totally bullcrap arguments. Bullcrap
06-26-2011, 02:13 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I'm going to quote above your post due to using the iPhone.
First I agree!
Second the 717 is great for a lot of things and it's too bad Boeing suffocated it. That said the SWA insiders who don't want the 717 and said recently that SWA management in roadshows was saying the 717 would be released are now saying that it's staying. Whether that's because SWA wants the 717 or any deal to get rid it of it isn't worth it or Delta doesn't like the numbers for now we won't know. But SWA management mentioned the 717 sim will be headed to Dallas.
After a hellacious weekend of nonreving I think I see the beauty of the 88 for sure now. We need seats. 319s, 73-7s and 9s just don't cut it. They have their place but what is needed is cheap airplanes with lots of seats IMHO to absorb irops.
I'm not convinced fuel efficiency is that big of a deal if 150 seater can be had cheap, in the case of allegiant for $4-$5M for line ready birds, versus a horribly expensive smaller first year model high efficiency jet. Want fuel efficiency then let's talk props.
I say buy used Airbuses and 80s until your house is in order.
Maybe I'm jaded about new planes but I can tell you after looking through the sales numbers of a large multi store car dealership I can say the money wasn't in new cars but the $10,000 range used cars. The ones you can buy for $3k and sell for $9.9k versus the high price used or new cars where the margins were under $2.5k and you lived off maintenance and finance & interest income and manufacturer coupons. Dealers love the margins of their used lots.
First I agree!
Second the 717 is great for a lot of things and it's too bad Boeing suffocated it. That said the SWA insiders who don't want the 717 and said recently that SWA management in roadshows was saying the 717 would be released are now saying that it's staying. Whether that's because SWA wants the 717 or any deal to get rid it of it isn't worth it or Delta doesn't like the numbers for now we won't know. But SWA management mentioned the 717 sim will be headed to Dallas.
After a hellacious weekend of nonreving I think I see the beauty of the 88 for sure now. We need seats. 319s, 73-7s and 9s just don't cut it. They have their place but what is needed is cheap airplanes with lots of seats IMHO to absorb irops.
I'm not convinced fuel efficiency is that big of a deal if 150 seater can be had cheap, in the case of allegiant for $4-$5M for line ready birds, versus a horribly expensive smaller first year model high efficiency jet. Want fuel efficiency then let's talk props.
I say buy used Airbuses and 80s until your house is in order.
Maybe I'm jaded about new planes but I can tell you after looking through the sales numbers of a large multi store car dealership I can say the money wasn't in new cars but the $10,000 range used cars. The ones you can buy for $3k and sell for $9.9k versus the high price used or new cars where the margins were under $2.5k and you lived off maintenance and finance & interest income and manufacturer coupons. Dealers love the margins of their used lots.
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas FtB,
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-26-2011 at 02:32 PM.
06-26-2011, 02:21 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Btw, when it comes to aircraft orders one thing I'll never forget was post 9/11 was that CAL, lessee of lots and lots of new shinny jets, was all of a sudden no different than a suddenly underemployed person who had maxed out their credit cards, home mortgage and car leases.
I remember CAL people lamenting as Gordon Bethune ran around proclaiming CAL would fire/furlough 10,000 people immediately that while the NWA DC9s were old at least they were paid for.
Btw, why aren't we talking E190s again? Seems like with Airbus ramping up this neo program and the cseries gaining some steam that maybe it's time to buy used or cheap 190s.
I remember CAL people lamenting as Gordon Bethune ran around proclaiming CAL would fire/furlough 10,000 people immediately that while the NWA DC9s were old at least they were paid for.
Btw, why aren't we talking E190s again? Seems like with Airbus ramping up this neo program and the cseries gaining some steam that maybe it's time to buy used or cheap 190s.
06-26-2011, 03:53 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas FtB,
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
If you can stomach "Made in China" what you describe exists.
Built on the tooling ships 965 and 964 were built on, here's everything you wanted plus glass.
RNP is part of NexGen ATC and you won't be able to fly an airliner without RNP in just a few years, thus the cockpit upgrades in the pipe for the Maddogs.
And now I present
DC-9-30 with Russian wing RJ-motors and a new front window
Avic ARJ21
Personally, I'd prefer the US-made 717....
Cheers
George
06-26-2011, 04:17 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 405
Heres a question I've always wondered about. Forgive my knowledge on this as most of my experience has been part 91 with a little 121 mixed in. I've always wondered do the fuel savings on newer, more fuel efficient aircraft offset the cost of running less fuel efficient aircraft that are paid for. I'm assuming that over time that it would.
Just made me wonder with the talks on here about aircraft orders
Thx
Just made me wonder with the talks on here about aircraft orders
Thx
06-26-2011, 04:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Originally Posted by georgetg
RNP is part of NexGen ATC and you won't be able to fly an airliner without RNP in just a few years, thus the cockpit upgrades in the pipe for the Maddogs.
Personally, I'd prefer the US-made 717....
Cheers
George
Personally, I'd prefer the US-made 717....
Cheers
George
You can have the greatest wizz bang 1 meter accuracy RNP system, but you can only squeeze so many airplanes onto a piece of concrete.
On departures you need at roughly 2 miles separation (at least in practice), and with 757/heavies, it's 5 miles. Ever wonder why the line creeps aloing in ATL, but not in DTW? Proportion of 757/heavies in the mix is far greater in ATL.
On landing, the minimum separation, in practice, is 3 miles. You need just so much time to land and clear the runway.
RNP isn't going to fix that, ever.
Even when a simple re-arranging of airspace would greatly improve traffic flow, places like Long Island have the poltiical power to stop it.
RNP isn't going to fix that, either.
Instead, we chase the RNP boondoggle because that money is out of sight, out of mind and we can spread the pain to the operators, as well.
Actually paying for land and having the bulldozers in plain sight building new runways is way more politically toxic.
Agree on your second point, though.
Nu
06-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,876
Originally Posted by fisherpilot
Heres a question I've always wondered about. Forgive my knowledge on this as most of my experience has been part 91 with a little 121 mixed in. I've always wondered do the fuel savings on newer, more fuel efficient aircraft offset the cost of running less fuel efficient aircraft that are paid for. I'm assuming that over time that it would.
Just made me wonder with the talks on here about aircraft orders
Thx
Just made me wonder with the talks on here about aircraft orders
Thx
It depends on many factors - the most important being is "What result does management desire at that particular moment?" Once management decides what it would like the end result to be, just fine tune the inputs, duration, assumptions etc, and wala! They have numbers to back them up - magic!
Even if management actually wanted an unbiased answer, it would still driven by subjective assumptions. For example - what will fuel cost next month, next year, or over the life of the aircraft? What is the duration you are looking at etc.
Scoop
06-26-2011, 05:29 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I'm going to quote above your post due to using the iPhone.
First I agree!
Second the 717 is great for a lot of things and it's too bad Boeing suffocated it. That said the SWA insiders who don't want the 717 and said recently that SWA management in roadshows was saying the 717 would be released are now saying that it's staying. Whether that's because SWA wants the 717 or any deal to get rid it of it isn't worth it or Delta doesn't like the numbers for now we won't know. But SWA management mentioned the 717 sim will be headed to Dallas.
After a hellacious weekend of nonreving I think I see the beauty of the 88 for sure now. We need seats. 319s, 73-7s and 9s just don't cut it. They have their place but what is needed is cheap airplanes with lots of seats IMHO to absorb irops.
I'm not convinced fuel efficiency is that big of a deal if 150 seater can be had cheap, in the case of allegiant for $4-$5M for line ready birds, versus a horribly expensive smaller first year model high efficiency jet. Want fuel efficiency then let's talk props.
I say buy used Airbuses and 80s until your house is in order.
Maybe I'm jaded about new planes but I can tell you after looking through the sales numbers of a large multi store car dealership I can say the money wasn't in new cars but the $10,000 range used cars. The ones you can buy for $3k and sell for $9.9k versus the high price used or new cars where the margins were under $2.5k and you lived off maintenance and finance & interest income and manufacturer coupons. Dealers love the margins of their used lots.
First I agree!
Second the 717 is great for a lot of things and it's too bad Boeing suffocated it. That said the SWA insiders who don't want the 717 and said recently that SWA management in roadshows was saying the 717 would be released are now saying that it's staying. Whether that's because SWA wants the 717 or any deal to get rid it of it isn't worth it or Delta doesn't like the numbers for now we won't know. But SWA management mentioned the 717 sim will be headed to Dallas.
After a hellacious weekend of nonreving I think I see the beauty of the 88 for sure now. We need seats. 319s, 73-7s and 9s just don't cut it. They have their place but what is needed is cheap airplanes with lots of seats IMHO to absorb irops.
I'm not convinced fuel efficiency is that big of a deal if 150 seater can be had cheap, in the case of allegiant for $4-$5M for line ready birds, versus a horribly expensive smaller first year model high efficiency jet. Want fuel efficiency then let's talk props.
I say buy used Airbuses and 80s until your house is in order.
Maybe I'm jaded about new planes but I can tell you after looking through the sales numbers of a large multi store car dealership I can say the money wasn't in new cars but the $10,000 range used cars. The ones you can buy for $3k and sell for $9.9k versus the high price used or new cars where the margins were under $2.5k and you lived off maintenance and finance & interest income and manufacturer coupons. Dealers love the margins of their used lots.
Wow FTB, I agree completely with every word of your post...including the used cars - having been a used car dealer, I can tell you they are money generators.
I think also, the next step for DAL Mgmt is to announce the purchase of every 717 produced for cheap. Gotta work out something with those rolls royce guys, I've got a few connections there, but noone's asking me. Power by the hour worked for the harrier guys.
06-26-2011, 05:43 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by scambo1
Wow FTB, I agree completely with every word of your post...including the used cars - having been a used car dealer, I can tell you they are money generators.
I think also, the next step for DAL Mgmt is to announce the purchase of every 717 produced for cheap. Gotta work out something with those rolls royce guys, I've got a few connections there, but noone's asking me. Power by the hour worked for the harrier guys.
I think also, the next step for DAL Mgmt is to announce the purchase of every 717 produced for cheap. Gotta work out something with those rolls royce guys, I've got a few connections there, but noone's asking me. Power by the hour worked for the harrier guys.
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