Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-28-2011, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Well, can you blame him if he meant 15% over the life of the contract?
All he probably ever hears is what are you willing to give up to get 20%?
So he settled on 15% and probably 2% yoy. He's beaten down and his expectations have been tarnished thanks to ALPA national who is practically demanding for him to give up good jobs to their lowest paid members of the union in exchange for nearly nothing.
Not to mention that Richard Trumka has volunteered us all to help Van Jones' new anti-tea party party. ? We'll save that for another day.
BTW, a 15% increase yoy will in the end (not taking into account the time value of money which if we're dealing with the dollar it's anyones guess what it'll be worth) but 15% yoy vs 60% upfront and cola after that is a wash.
The 15% YOY would increase cost $450M/year on average (according to airlinefinancials.com) beginning with a $350M increase and ending with a $500M+ yearly increase.
The 60% up front would give us $1.4B initially and then there would a $70M-ish raise per year.
Sure we'd like it up front but I also don't want the sum of money becoming a C2000 style target to be retrieved in less than half a decade and any concessions made to get that pay not returned.
I'm open to 15% YOY.
All he probably ever hears is what are you willing to give up to get 20%?
So he settled on 15% and probably 2% yoy. He's beaten down and his expectations have been tarnished thanks to ALPA national who is practically demanding for him to give up good jobs to their lowest paid members of the union in exchange for nearly nothing.
Not to mention that Richard Trumka has volunteered us all to help Van Jones' new anti-tea party party. ? We'll save that for another day.
BTW, a 15% increase yoy will in the end (not taking into account the time value of money which if we're dealing with the dollar it's anyones guess what it'll be worth) but 15% yoy vs 60% upfront and cola after that is a wash.
The 15% YOY would increase cost $450M/year on average (according to airlinefinancials.com) beginning with a $350M increase and ending with a $500M+ yearly increase.
The 60% up front would give us $1.4B initially and then there would a $70M-ish raise per year.
Sure we'd like it up front but I also don't want the sum of money becoming a C2000 style target to be retrieved in less than half a decade and any concessions made to get that pay not returned.
I'm open to 15% YOY.
Carl
06-28-2011, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Not to mention that Richard Trumka has volunteered us all to help Van Jones' new anti-tea party party. ? We'll save that for another day.
Just freakin wonderful.
Carl
06-28-2011, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Just remember this: By this year's end, AirTran pilots will be making more than Delta 744/777 Captains, and will be until AT LEAST 2013. And they'll be doing so with the industry's best Scope. Nuff said.
Carl
Carl
06-28-2011, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DeadHead
FTB, he wasn't talking YOY. He specifically said 15%-20% raise over a 4 year contract. Basically around 3%-5% YOY.
Tried clarifying it with him, and this is fact what he meant.
I actually don't like talking about what we should be negotiating for in the next contract on these boards because management types could use it as a reference, but I don't see a 5% raise every year being taken as anything less than a joke. (All other contract variables being equal)
Tried clarifying it with him, and this is fact what he meant.
I actually don't like talking about what we should be negotiating for in the next contract on these boards because management types could use it as a reference, but I don't see a 5% raise every year being taken as anything less than a joke. (All other contract variables being equal)
Was this individual a rep or a line pilot?
Regardless, my vote cancels his out.
06-28-2011, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Just remember this: By this year's end, AirTran pilots will be making more than Delta 744/777 Captains, and will be until AT LEAST 2013. And they'll be doing so with the industry's best Scope. Nuff said.
Carl
Carl
06-28-2011, 05:45 AM
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Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Just remember this: By this year's end, AirTran pilots will be making more than Delta 744/777 Captains, and will be until AT LEAST 2013. And they'll be doing so with the industry's best Scope. Nuff said.
But alas, we won't. Wouldn't be "constructive".
06-28-2011, 05:55 AM
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Position: 777B
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Originally Posted by dragon
But as many here will tell you - they aren't our Peers. To them, I would suggest we add AT/SWA to our peer group!
A direct competitor in our fortress hub not in our peer group? Even when AT had lower wages, we competed well against them.
I agree with deadhead to a point about not discussing this stuff on a public board...Not to keep mgmt from getting any ideas, because flt ops mgmt is us - pilots - they know our mindset, but more to limit the expectations management.
When I was a newbie and had zero understanding of unions, I had to be told how to think like a union member. One of the things I was told was that going on strike was the same thing as saying "this job is so bad I am willing to walk away from it and not look back." I think that is still true, but at that time it was a career. Now it is a job and walking away only carries a loss of accrued seniority.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the job and my fellow pilots. I am not a paycheck to paycheck guy, I can walk away from this and frankly continue my current lifestyle on a $45-50K/year annual budget. If we are looking at a 15-50% ****ant payraise or anything that doesnt tighten scope across the board, I'd go for the strike vote right out of the chute. No brainer.
Hey, where's Pineapple guy?
06-28-2011, 06:02 AM
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I agree with the base pay standards of many, but I think it's important to reiterate the importance of SCOPE. And I'm not just talking RJ's, we have to watch JV's and codeshares too.
06-28-2011, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by scambo1
A direct competitor in our fortress hub not in our peer group? Even when AT had lower wages, we competed well against them.
I agree with deadhead to a point about not discussing this stuff on a public board...Not to keep mgmt from getting any ideas, because flt ops mgmt is us - pilots - they know our mindset, but more to limit the expectations management.
When I was a newbie and had zero understanding of unions, I had to be told how to think like a union member. One of the things I was told was that going on strike was the same thing as saying "this job is so bad I am willing to walk away from it and not look back." I think that is still true, but at that time it was a career. Now it is a job and walking away only carries a loss of accrued seniority.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the job and my fellow pilots. I am not a paycheck to paycheck guy, I can walk away from this and frankly continue my current lifestyle on a $45-50K/year annual budget. If we are looking at a 15-50% ****ant payraise or anything that doesnt tighten scope across the board, I'd go for the strike vote right out of the chute. No brainer.
Hey, where's Pineapple guy?
I agree with deadhead to a point about not discussing this stuff on a public board...Not to keep mgmt from getting any ideas, because flt ops mgmt is us - pilots - they know our mindset, but more to limit the expectations management.
When I was a newbie and had zero understanding of unions, I had to be told how to think like a union member. One of the things I was told was that going on strike was the same thing as saying "this job is so bad I am willing to walk away from it and not look back." I think that is still true, but at that time it was a career. Now it is a job and walking away only carries a loss of accrued seniority.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the job and my fellow pilots. I am not a paycheck to paycheck guy, I can walk away from this and frankly continue my current lifestyle on a $45-50K/year annual budget. If we are looking at a 15-50% ****ant payraise or anything that doesnt tighten scope across the board, I'd go for the strike vote right out of the chute. No brainer.
Hey, where's Pineapple guy?
They are in our peer group. It's just that the ALPA guys are saying that they aren't for negotiation purposes. Frankly think they are using the ostrich theory on that one.
I also agree with the strike vote. However, there is absolutely no way we would ever be released for "self help". Therefore the vote would be largely symbolic and the company has to realize that they hold all or most of the cards.
Our next contract has to tighten scope and restore our pay. I'm actually leaning right now toward a short term deal. If the hiring problems are indeed true, then we'll have a limited commodity. Additionally, the economy is still not robust, so waiting until its on a bit more of a upward trajectory will also be beneficial. Either way, taking a short term risk of a longer term gain might just work. Of course, I could be whistling Dixie.
06-28-2011, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DeadHead
I asked for clarification, just to be sure, and he said he doesn't think we would EVER see 2000 pay scales again.
I stopped asking questions after that statement.
I stopped asking questions after that statement.
Originally Posted by johnso29
Oh boy. Well no one needs to manage his expectations. 
Actually, he does need his expectations managed, just in the other direction.
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