Dalpa's opener will be based on the pilot contract surveys. However if you believe the opener is how you define success in contract negotiations you have a very limited grasp of the process and the RLA. Americans opener was breathtaking to read as a pilot. It contained large pay increases and huge gains in work rules. I guess you would define APA's contract negotiations as a success. I would however think otherwise at this point.

You make a great post Bill but remember that while SWA may have 738s on order they're entire fleet right now consists of aircraft smaller than the MD88, the second lowest paying aircraft in our fleet, a mission profile of high cycle domestic trips.

And some of that new fleet will be 717s that will probably be negotiated to the same pay rate as the 737 since they're the same as their 735s. The 717 is a DC9-30. We have DC9 pay rates.

So MD88/DC9 pay at SWA 737 pay.

Sailing, you saying you want a lot more than SWA pay? :)

Ans SWA scope too maybe?

As to how SWA got to where they are is inconsequential though to the fact that theyre not going to give up those rates. But as you say you want a lot more, which is good, right?

Only 8-10% pay raise? Seems a bit low - because we certainly have 3 day trips that pay 11-14 hours, while at SWA a 3 day trip would pay 16.89 hrs (19.5 TRP * 0.8666) of pay.

Also, just comparing 737 vs 737, Delta 12 yr Captain pays $174 while SWA pays $210 (that's not a TRP rate, that's been converted to $/hr). Maybe it's my math, but that alone requires a 21% raise, just to meet their current pay.

Yep, you're right, but take those numbers and reduce the pay, it's still plenty more per day than we're making.

True, they(SWA) do RECENTLY. Historically this has NOT been the case as mentioned ad nauseum.

Why are you done with ALPA? You don't know the opener. For the last time DALPA doesn't either, contract surveys have not been filled out by the pilots yet.

If DALPA put out a "wish list"/opener, minimum standard publication/press release right now; there are MANY posters here (including me) that would be ****ed at DALPA for making statements on behalf of the pilot group without even asking the pilots what they want first!!

DALPA cannot and will not publish, advertise, release to the media a fictitious set of demands when they don't know what the real desires of the pilots are!

(On a personal note: I look forward to the survey, all you DPA'ers who think we need "SWA pay" are managing my expectations, I have much higher standards than that.)

The SWA rally cry is low-balling ourselves at this point. The last full Sec. 6 contract DAL signed (C2K)was a record breaker, 1996 sucked, 1991 was good, etc.

Relax, don't shoot before you've aimed....

All right, here is a quote straight from the DPA website:

So even DPA knows that the basis of your contract is the financial condition of the company that you work for. If you are going to negotiate, then you have to start with an accurate picture. If you pull out some propaganda from a flyer that is meant to persuade other pilots to accept a bad seniority integration, then you might as well ask the negotiators to put on a clown suit. You have to have credibility both with the people you are negotiating against and with the NMB that has the power to suspend your negotiations indefinitely.

So, everyone would like more money and more time off. Get over yourself and realize that everyone has the same goal, it is just that to accomplish your goal, you can't act like an idiot and expect any results. Maybe that will give some brief moment of Zen on the internet to spout off how tough you are, but in the end I want more money. Losing your head and making a fool of yourself is not the way to get it. Period.

So I don't know who you are, but you have convinced me that I don't want you running the show. Emotional rants will get me nothing.

while i respect your loyalty to DAL, you are wrong about SWA,(DISCLOSURE,i have immediate family flying for them),their union is focused on their pilot group alone and has achieved great things for them,ALPA national is a contradiction ,representing groups whose interests are diametrically opposed and trying to be a fair arbiter to all,good luck with that. I have no skin in your game but i think you would be better served with a union devoted to your people and your concerns (read:SCOPE<SCOPE<SCOPE),anyway happy 4th !!! Good luck gents I have a lot of buds at DAL.

That publication also is a management kool-aid drinkers paradise. 10 pages are devoted to how wonderful the company is and how they have picnic together, etc.

I thought that an union should NOT carry the company's water?

It is a publication that 'brags' on SWA pilots, its not filled with 10-k numbers, actual bid results, end of month numbers, etc. Just one or two anecdotal trip trades....remember that the guy who "dropped" the low time trip in the example to pick up, one person is now flying one less trip that month and/or someone else had to fly the lower time trip be it a reserve or a line holder. Its an "I LUV Me....and So Should You" rag. Little more.

Again, you hold up SWA as a model.... You're shooting way too low and damaging MY chances of a better outcome on the next PWA.

See previous post.

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