No, a majority of this pilot group has gotta be pretty naive to believe that ALPA actually wants to defend our Scope in the first place. They clearly do not. The case would be all but a slam dunk, yet they refuse to even try. It's all you need to know.

Carl

Should have read your post before I did.

100% correct.

Carl

Complete BS. I spoke to our CEO on my jet right before 9-11. Our contract was amendable the following year. I told him that I hope he enjoys the competitive advantage he's got while it lasts because come next year, you're going to have to open that checkbook to make us Delta plus. He said: "We know...but we'll enjoy it while it lasts."

Little did ANY of us know that 9-11 was just a few months away. Had 9-11 not happened, NWA would have matched or exceeded Delta pilots and everyone else would have patterned up. To recapture their previous profit margins, management would simply have had to raise the ticket prices the extra 7 or 8 dollars to cover the increased cost to the industry of pilot pay. Oh I forgot, an extra 7 or 8 dollars would make people stop flying...as the new baggage fees clearly prove. :rolleyes:

ALPA didn't know, and nobody else knew either. Except Bin Laden and his immediate crew.

Carl

That's no evidence Bar. Damn near every airline hired people on their teams that lacked any airline experience. Companies do that all the time. When our CEO was fired after our 98 pilot strike, he became CEO of Burger King...and he had no previous burger chain experience.

Nobody knew 9-11 was going to happen and bankrupt the industry. Pilot pay had NOTHING to do with it.

Carl

Exactly correct. And management sympathizers will eagerly parrot those talking points despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Carl

Carl,

Your numbers are way off. In fact, the economic effects of the 9/11 attacks were relatively benign and less than initially anticipated. The massive government spending resulted in quite a bit of offsetting stimulus to our economy. Delta, through its subsidiaries, hired thousands more pilots than it furloughed and retired.

The 2008 financial crises was much worse from an economic standpoint and Delta furloughed no one.

I believe Delta would have likely declared bankruptcy with, or without C2K. Other factors, like over paying for regional airlines, the Comair strike and profligate spending in other areas assured the outcome.

My only contention is that the language of C2K was ill considered and we should not accept status quo in C2012. Section 1 needs to get tossed in favor of inclusive language which defines ALL new flying as ours giving us automatic ownership over any new code share and which recovers outsourced flying as contracts expire.

NWA didn't have Delta's C2K rates, and we failed the same day as Delta. C2K's only ill-conceived portions were those regarding scope sales. The adverse conditions created by 9-11 sunk everyone darn near equally...except Southwest.

Results do matter. But you refuse to acknowledge any results of 9-11.

Carl

But he is not correct. Leo Mullin used that line in response to Charles Giambusso.

His statement is akin to my stating Jennifer Anniston is in my bedroom, but, it is not Ms. Anniston, but it is a woman.

Mi Amigo,

Exactly! Delta and NWA's bankruptcy were strategic defaults, well planned and executed with the precise synchronous precision illustrated by the Blue Angels. It wasn't 9/11 or C2K. But the concessions to our scope live in perpetuity.

Geez...another guy who never heard of 9-11.

9-11 landed us all in bankruptcy court, not rose colored glasses.

Unreal.

Carl