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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Delta (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/)
-   -   Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

JoeMerchant 07-20-2011 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1026024)
Holy Crap, Joe and Brakechatter (great handle BTW) making sense!

Maybe the second coming of the Comair Bogeyman is a sign!

OK, this is freaking me out.
Bar, I have ALWAYS agreed with you in principle...However principle doesn't protect my job....Either we are TOGETHER, or we are SEPARATE...as it stands, we are SEPARATE...There is no in between..

JoeMerchant 07-20-2011 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 1026033)
Yes
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
I love this argument from the DALPA true believers...If this flying that ASA and CMR did was only "on loan", then why did we do it while YOUR fellow Delta pilots were on furlough? You didn't "loan it out"...You SOLD it to increase your pay and workrules....Come on brakechatter...call a spade a spade...

Bucking Bar 07-20-2011 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 1026033)
Whatever you say. No offer was thrown out with regard to flow through either. Don't even bother delving into it with a diatribe, because it was. To suggest that CMR and ASA MECs were not acutely aware of the response that was expected from the Delta MEC, did not have their next move planned with members NOT on their MECs from the assured denial of the PID, and not pushing the best deal for their pilots possible (NOT a staple) is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie being more likely. Plausible deniability. How convenient. Not to worry, as it is used all over the universe in aviation. Doesn't fly to well with me.

The answer, it's not about me-although you wouldn't like the answer.

It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.

There were better ways to skin the cat, and CMR and ASA blew it.
Actually, Giambusso did make a supposal to Arnold about a flow and Arnold turned it down (at least that's what Arnold told everyone).

As for what the CMR, or ASA, MEC's would have opened with IF their PID had been accepted is speculation. I'll concede that I've got no idea what their opener would have looked like. Maybe you are right. But you have to admit, "status quo would have been a staple" (Arnold said that, too).

ASA did have its own code, its own marketing and some routes it had developed independently and some which were developed under their first code share partner, Eastern. IMHO they owned that code and Delta bought it. Today Delta owns that code.

Comair's history is quite a bit different. They were always more of a Delta creation.

Carl Spackler 07-20-2011 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1025827)
Read my original post, I said this is what the DPA's attorney has said, I did not say this was DPA's position.
Oh how clever of you. You're a real Bill Clinton.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1025827)
If you think that that there aren't any DPA members that want to change the seniority list and think DPA is the vehicle for that, then you are smoking crack.
You're lying. Again. If there is more than 5 out of 3100, I'll pull my DPA card.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1025827)
Come hang out in the DTW lounge for a few hours and you will see.
I'm there all the time sparky. Nobody has ever spoken of this in my presence. Ever. Nor in the presence of anyone I know. Why? Because our SLI is unchangeable.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1025827)
My point was and remains, the DPA attorney has said that negotiating changed seniority lists was like negotiating crew meals and the DOH is the gold standard. I have provided proof of both of those statements. This is not an opinion, it is cold hard fact.
That was true in the case of USAir and AWA because the two airlines had not yet combined. We have. See the difference? Show me where Lee Seham says that the Delta SLI is still changeable. I'll wait while you call ALPA for instructions on how to respond.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1025827)
The DPA spin machine is out in force today, I think I hit a nerve.
You did hit a nerve...my funny bone. In all your "investigations" I'm surprised you missed the DPA's real goal: To undo the Delta/Northwest corporate merger. Didn't you see that on the website? ;)

Carl

brakechatter 07-20-2011 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 1026035)
The fact that you still suggest a "flow through" as a solution to this problem tells me all I need to know....Take your "flow through" and shove it....That isn't a solution...Do you have "flow throughs" to go from the narrowbody aircraft to the widebody aircraft? Why not? "Flow through" is just another way of saying there are two classes of pilots...which is how we got to this mess in the first place...
Heh, heh. Um, ya. I think that my version of events is looking more and more correct

Besides, I do not support a pure flow through. We already have our 1%, and adding you to the mix would only increase that. Alas, I have no say in it. Just a regular line guy with 1 input.

And when your name is given to me, before I even know it, by guys who are eager to get their buds on with Delta, no I don't believe that they had an
agenda. Even more obviously, you do.

You still think that this has to do with class of pilot, LOL.

Carl Spackler 07-20-2011 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1025839)
The general move away from status quo benchmarks also makes the outcome less certain. After all, who had ever heard of pull & plug?
It's one of the oldest axioms in a merged seniority list - preventing windfalls. Many methods to achieve that, but the axiom is the same.

Carl

Bucking Bar 07-20-2011 06:01 PM
Oh crap, I've managed to tick off Carl too, in the same day.

Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 1026046)
Heh, heh. We already have our 1%.
Don't know why, but that's just funny, don't care who you are.

1% of 11,000 is 110. Who are the other 109? (double crap, I'm going to get punched in the nose & he's bigger than me)

JoeMerchant 07-20-2011 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 1026046)
Besides, I do not support a pure flow through. We already have our 1%, and adding you to the mix would only increase that. Alas, I have no say in it. Just a regular line guy with 1 input.
So what exactly is your solution to this mess that has been festering for over two decades? Is it to stick your head back in the sand and ignore it?

Originally Posted by brakechatter
And when your name is given to me, before I even know it, by guys who are eager to get their buds on with Delta, no I don't believe that they had an
agenda. Even more obviously, you do.
The guys who moved on to Delta are going to have a different agenda than I do...

Originally Posted by brakechatter
You still think that this has to do with class of pilot, LOL.
It absolutely does....There were NWA pilots who were hired as Metro pilots at Southern who became Delta pilots without ever interviewing....The Redbook pilots looked down on the Greenbook pilots. USAir and AmericaWest pilots hate each other...How about American vs. TWA pilots? This "brotherhood" is nothing but "class"....the reality is it is "classless"....

brakechatter 07-20-2011 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 1026040)
I love this argument from the DALPA true believers...If this flying that ASA and CMR did was only "on loan", then why did we do it while YOUR fellow Delta pilots were on furlough? You didn't "loan it out"...You SOLD it to increase your pay and workrules....Come on brakechatter...call a spade a spade...
I didn't do anything, and have the voting record to prove it.

Read MY contract, comprehend it, and get back to me. All flying performed BY Delta is subject to the Delta PWA. End of story. How that flying is doled out is ultimately between Delta and the Delta pilots. The tide is shifting here at Delta, and I can't fathom your interest in your luxury job with all that time off and all that pay. Why worry about our little inbred soiree?!? :rolleyes:

What do you care if we trade a little flying for pay or vice versa? I mean, you're safe, right? I thought it was all about you?

This discussion has been fascinating.

JoeMerchant 07-20-2011 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by brakechatter (Post 1026056)
Read MY contract, comprehend it, and get back to me. All flying performed BY Delta is subject to the Delta PWA. End of story. How that flying is doled out is ultimately between Delta and the Delta pilots. The tide is shifting here at Delta, and I can't fathom your interest in your luxury job with all that time off and all that pay. Why worry about our little inbred soiree?!? :rolleyes:

What do you care if we trade a little flying for pay or vice versa? I mean, you're safe, right? I thought it was all about you?
I have read it...Why did you trade your flying for pay while you had pilots on furlough? Why did you allow me to advance while selling out your junior pilots? The last decade, my job has gotten better and my pay has gotten better while your pilots were on the street....If you "OWNED" it, why did you allow it?


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