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Originally Posted by Nosmo King
(Post 1061265)
A couple of comments.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position. I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher. I think we all know we aren't going to reach an agreement outside of mediation so our true "openers" are just mental, um, facilitation. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1061319)
We have tried the huge opener at Delta. In the end we got a lower rate then could have been achieved with a more reasonable opener and lost half the 16 aircraft on order.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr. Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June. DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner. Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014! Goodbye. There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame. This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team. :confused: Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world. But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go. The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end. Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask? To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect. I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there. New K Now (Sorry for the length.) |
Originally Posted by Jesse
(Post 1061379)
"What are you willing to give up for that?"
Home Study Management Bonuses Virginia Avenue Hotels Outsourcing Bankruptcy Pay Bankruptcy Benefits Bankruptcy Work Rules ALPA? Shirly we can add to the list of what we could give up to help the cause... |
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 1061465)
Sailing,
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team. :confused: Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world. But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go. The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end. Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask? To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect. I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there. New K Now (Sorry for the length.) |
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE! Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.) Successorship/Merger with another carrier Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets Change of Control Cabotage Alter Ego Subcontracting Bankruptcy 1113 Protection Foreign Ownership |
Originally Posted by poostain
(Post 1061470)
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE! Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.) Successorship/Merger with another carrier Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets Change of Control Cabotage Alter Ego Subcontracting Bankruptcy 1113 Protection Foreign Ownership |
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 1061465)
Sailing,
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team. :confused: Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world. But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go. The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end. Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask? To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect. I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there. New K Now (Sorry for the length.) To tie in with another post about the "what are you willing to give up to get that" mentality at DALPA. I saw a clear example of that earlier this year when I had a lengthy email exchange with the ATL LEC Chairman. We were discussing the idea of approaching the company for a mid-contract partial pay restoration to bring us to W2 parity with SWA. He didn't like the idea of doing that because he said that getting SWA pay would mean the company would require us to concede SWA productivity... and that would result in a large number of furloughs and backwards movement throughout the company. It was a clear example of a "what are you willing to give up to get that" mentality. I have seen nothing to date that makes me think this kind of thing is not the predominant thinking in our MEC. Sailingfun, who seems to be in lock step with the MEC on just about everything, has provided us yet another example. Very disappointing. :( |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 1061453)
No flying during vacation, and no sell back options. If that changes it will put guys on the street.
Thanks, I didn't think anything changed but you never know. |
Originally Posted by poostain
(Post 1061470)
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE! Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.) Successorship/Merger with another carrier Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets Change of Control Cabotage Alter Ego Subcontracting Bankruptcy 1113 Protection Foreign Ownership I was going to put subcontracting as number 1, because it is so general. But I didn't like leaving DCI anywhere but number 1. DCI is subcontracting, and it is, by far, our largest and most dammaging subcontracting. 40-50% of our block hours and a similar percentage of our pilot jobs. Alter Ego is a holding company scope issue and we already have that, with only DCI being the outstanding issue to be resolved. Bankruptcy protection is sort of a nebulous construct because you can't really ever have that, especially us as labor. I ranked that low only because why waste point weighting on something that would likely be thrown out in, well, bankrputcy? Foreign Ownership and Cabotage are huge threats. But that must be handled at the legislative level and has little to do with our contract. Successorship, Merger, Fragmentation and Change of Control are also important, but we already have about as much protection in those areas that any contract, especially any ALPA contract, can provide given the era of relative arbitration and the federal merger law. So that's why IMO DCI is by far the biggest issue that is causing the most dammage that is most within our control. Its the issue that we can do the most about in C2012. Its the issue that our current book drops the ball on the most and that our next book can make the most progress on. A close second would be the AK code share abuse, but there are at lease some supposed revenue sharing restrictions. Not so with DCI, where we get 100% of the revenue after paying 105-110 or so percent of the costs. And DCI is WAY, WAY, WAY bigger an outsourcing and a downward force cancer than AK. YMMV. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1061431)
What I am willing to give up is my wife working 70 hrs weeks to give us an acceptable QOL.
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