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Originally Posted by shoelu
(Post 1088806)
First off, working 12 days a month and earning $240,000 is not the average in my opinion, but it is certainly possible if you are senior enough to effectively manipulate your schedule. Here are some examples of trips from the PHX November bid package. They didn't copy and paste very well, but you can get an idea of what trips are available. I purposefully picked high value trips for this example. A 1 day, 2 day, 3 day, and a 4 day. We do not have trips over 4 days. The answer lies in efficient trip pairings, due in large part to our rigs. The minimum day is 6.5 TFP for every day of a trip, whether you had duty or not. Minimums- 1 day-6.5, 2 day-13.0, 3 day-19.5, 4 day-26.0. The vast majority of trips are 3 days.
Also, you have to remember that we do not have pref bid. So, there are many more chances to manipulate your schedule due to overlap between months, training and the best of all vacation. In December I have vacation and am working 6 days for a projected credit of more than 82 TFP of credit for 32 hours of block. I obviously chose to work as little as possible and therefore my credit suffered, but you can easily go the other direction and milk the credit with less time off. My vacation bid netted me 18 days off in a row and a total of 25 days off in December. We also have extremely liberal rules regarding trip trading. ELITT (Electronic Line Improvement Trip Trade) is spectacular and allows more flexibility than most other airlines. Now to get into the nuts and bolts of how you can work only 12 days and make $240,000 is a little bit more involved. Many senior folks in both seats will purposefully bid lines that are easy to give away. They bid for mainly 1 and 2 day pairings and then drop them all in give away. They often come close to clearing their schedule and then pick up POT (Premium Open Time) at 1.5 times their pay rate. I know people who will not leave the house without 10 TFP per day, and they are able to do it consistently. On the other side of the spectrum many folks routinely work themselves to death earning 150 TFP a month and greater, but they certainly sacrifice days off to get there. In short you can work as little or as much as you want to a SWA and are compensated accordingly. Thanks for posting that...when the heck do you guys eat on a trip? It sounds like your system is "real time", and that all add, drop and swap requests are performed by the computer instantanously. The DAL system, to compare, also has two separate trip trading systems, but there are significant differences from the SWA system. The normal "swap/add/drop" with the company, including swapping with open time, is run 4 times a day. Drops are only permitted when there is sufficient reserve coverage for each day of the drop, and swaps are permitted only if the cummulative reserve coverage is par or better (there's a fussy little formula). No out of base adding of trips is allowed, except for same day, next day flying. The pilot-to-pilot swap board runs separately from this system, and has no caps, and works in real time. No out of base P-T-P swaps. The main problem with doing the kinds of trip trading that you describe is the premium system at DAL is ONLY for trips that are same day/next day. It only pays the premium after a certain point (usually 73-75 hours). This REALLY restricts the type of cherry picking maniuplation that you describe, because it eliminates most commuters. It really only is good for guys who live in base. It does pay 200%. OTOH, the fNWA system paid less, but was more flexible for commuters. Like SWA, the company designated premium trips that paid %150, but they alsy paid %150 for everything over 80. If you did a premium trip AND went over 80, the multipliers stacked (%225). You could add or swap into premium time for premium flying any time during the month (or next), so it was workable for commuters. The restrictions on swapping from open time were less restrictive, but there was no mechanism for dropping trips, and open time ran once a day. A "best practices" system, IMHO, would take the DAL PCS/swap system, and use the fNWA premium system. Maybe make the system run in real time, but there would be a TON of resistance from senior guys, becase the current system works to their benefit. The in-base guys would throw a fit to get rid of the current system as well, since it also benefits them. Nu |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1088833)
Always remember the wise words of Pineapple Guy:
Commuting is a choice. |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1088833)
Always remember the wise words of Pineapple Guy:
Commuting is a choice. |
A case for Delta pilots:
Yahoo finance ran an article recently stating that if under the original formula for minimum wage were applied today minimum wage would be 50k a year. This obviously is taking into consideration what the current dollar buying power is in today's world. If you extrapolate this out that puts the pilot position from middle class to lower class(regionals) pending one's position. So, the real question is where you believe the pilot profession should be. If at 4% raise as we are being told to expect then we have sealed the deal on this profession being a middle to lower middle class job. Remember at Delta that over half of our list will be retired in ten years being replaced with yr1,2,3 etc pilots on the lower end of the longevity pay scale (another big impending savings for the company.) If so, as Michael Boyd states, expect the makeup of the pilot group to change accordingly as well. Forget former military or even pilots with a college degree and say 'Hello' to mr/mrs. GED. Ergo, we will be fighting not only for our pilot group but for the profession as well. Most analyst agree that for a person to change careers above the age of forty is very unlikely for multiple reasons. (Family to support, time to learn a new trade, initial years of diminished earning power etc.) Take note that USAir, United, Delta, and Northwest (American with the threat of BK) all went to BK knowing the limited opportunities that the older pilots groups had. Forcing staggering pay and work rule concessions. My friend who is a college professor is amazed at this and even admitted that professors would freak out if universities asked them for a pay cut to lower tuition. Thus, I know of no other profession that has taken such huge cuts in order to make their product affordable for the public. If you compare the Delta merger with the other mergers in our industry (USAir&America West, United & Continental and now Southwest/Air Tran) ours has been the most successful by far. This company has enjoyed the "synergies" in tune of 3B in the past 18 months because of efforts made by both the North and South side, from integration, training and cohesion in the cockpit. I don't believe the other mergers will go so smoothly. For those that say if we get Southwest pay rates our "costs" will be much higher than Southwest, and thus would be unsustainable, haven't looked at the full picture. Okay, sure, in a public school math way you might be right with very fuzzy math but with a deeper look one will see that is so not correct. First, it is not just about costs it is also about revenue. Southwest does not get HVC that pays 6k for a first class seat, nor does it collect money in stronger foreign currencies or even have the corporate contracts that Delta has. But you are correct in saying that Delta and Southwest are different entities. Delta doesn't bribe ATC officials for priority handling, nor manipulate city councils and airport boards for free landing fees and gates or in the case of Tampa, a whole new terminal. And the Delta pilot group isn't the Machiavellian Pri Madonnas that staples people to the bottom of the list for their own gain. Finally, the past ten years this group has gone through 9/11 with the thought that on any given flight some freak might try and break down the door, BK with an effective 50% pay cut, degradation of work rules causing pilots to fly high time months never before seen on a continual basis, freezing/termination of their pension, stagnation because of age 65, and finally a merger. This pilot group, and pilots across America, have gone through the harshest time of any pilot group since our beginning in the 1920s and ironically, in terms of buying power, are paid lower than anytime in aviation history. So, excuse me if asking for SWA, UPS or FedEx rates doesn't seem extreme. Heck, I just want to be middle class! |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1088829)
The bid closed! Are the results out yet?
|
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1088833)
Always remember the wise words of Pineapple Guy:
Commuting is a choice. |
Originally Posted by Opus
(Post 1088850)
A case for Delta pilots:
Yahoo finance ran an article recently stating that if under the original formula for minimum wage were applied today minimum wage would be 50k a year. This obviously is taking into consideration what the current dollar buying power is in today's world. If you extrapolate this out that puts the pilot position from middle class to lower class(regionals) pending one's position. So, the real question is where you believe the pilot profession should be. If at 4% raise as we are being told to expect then we have sealed the deal on this profession being a middle to lower middle class job. Remember at Delta that over half of our list will be retired in ten years being replaced with yr1,2,3 etc pilots on the lower end of the longevity pay scale (another big impending savings for the company.) If so, as Michael Boyd states, expect the makeup of the pilot group to change accordingly as well. Forget former military or even pilots with a college degree and say 'Hello' to mr/mrs. GED. Ergo, we will be fighting not only for our pilot group but for the profession as well. Most analyst agree that for a person to change careers above the age of forty is very unlikely for multiple reasons. (Family to support, time to learn a new trade, initial years of diminished earning power etc.) Take note that USAir, United, Delta, and Northwest (American with the threat of BK) all went to BK knowing the limited opportunities that the older pilots groups had. Forcing staggering pay and work rule concessions. My friend who is a college professor is amazed at this and even admitted that professors would freak out if universities asked them for a pay cut to lower tuition. Thus, I know of no other profession that has taken such huge cuts in order to make their product affordable for the public. If you compare the Delta merger with the other mergers in our industry (USAir&America West, United & Continental and now Southwest/Air Tran) ours has been the most successful by far. This company has enjoyed the "synergies" in tune of 3B in the past 18 months because of efforts made by both the North and South side, from integration, training and cohesion in the cockpit. I don't believe the other mergers will go so smoothly. For those that say if we get Southwest pay rates our "costs" will be much higher than Southwest, and thus would be unsustainable, haven't looked at the full picture. Okay, sure, in a public school math way you might be right with very fuzzy math but with a deeper look one will see that is so not correct. First, it is not just about costs it is also about revenue. Southwest does not get HVC that pays 6k for a first class seat, nor does it collect money in stronger foreign currencies or even have the corporate contracts that Delta has. But you are correct in saying that Delta and Southwest are different entities. Delta doesn't bribe ATC officials for priority handling, nor manipulate city councils and airport boards for free landing fees and gates or in the case of Tampa, a whole new terminal. And the Delta pilot group isn't the Machiavellian Pri Madonnas that staples people to the bottom of the list for their own gain. Finally, the past ten years this group has gone through 9/11 with the thought that on any given flight some freak might try and break down the door, BK with an effective 50% pay cut, degradation of work rules causing pilots to fly high time months never before seen on a continual basis, freezing/termination of their pension, stagnation because of age 65, and finally a merger. This pilot group, and pilots across America, have gone through the harshest time of any pilot group since our beginning in the 1920s and ironically, in terms of buying power, are paid lower than anytime in aviation history. So, excuse me if asking for SWA, UPS or FedEx rates doesn't seem extreme. Heck, I just want to be middle class! |
Originally Posted by Delta1067
(Post 1088851)
How long on average does an award come out after the AE bid window closes?
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It'll most likely come out on Wednesday. I've seen them take a week, but it's usually just a couple of days. I'm sure the computer results are already done, but they (Delta and DALPA) will spend quite a bit of time reviewing it manually.
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So is the AE award out yet? Did we get a raise and better scope yet? Is it 2016 when I can get some good seniority yet? Is the economy better yet?
http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/im...a1/Swallow.jpg Can I get a trip so I can shave my beard yet? |
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