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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1088592)
You've done far worse than that sailingfun. You've intimated that DALPA's opener won't be anywhere near SWA and it will be because it's what the PILOTS want. Classic defeatist attitude that you and DALPA are trying to get everyone to adopt before Section 6 begins.
I don't know why you do these things. All the flight pay loss in world wouldn't allow me to do what you're doing. Carl |
Pilot A: "Pay raise? Delta can't afford it."
or Pilot B: "Let's figure out how Delta can afford it." or Pilot C: "How can Delta afford not to give us a pay raise?" ----- I'd rather be pilot B, but if necessary, pilot C. :D |
Here let's be pilot B for a moment, what do you think Delta's motivation is for C2012?
Off the top of my head I think Delta wants the minimal amount of changes and improvements necessary to complete this contract as soon as possible so as to move on to other things, like another merger. I think speed will be important to Delta because you don't want to give the one unionized group the leverage to slow down or disrupt business objectives. I think this management team is a very astute one. They are not AMR. I think they'll assess the situation at hand and move with a contract that can be signed by 51%. When I say situation at hand I mean you don't have to offer much to this pilot group but you can't go so low as to cause ALPA to be ousted. I think given the way Delta has acted towards the DPA to date and some of these MOUs I see them offering a minimum floor of improvements to avoid unrest. Because to me it seems as if moving quickly is the key to success for smart companies and airlines. But you don't have to go very high to get passage either because this is a group of pilots nearing retirement in a bad economy, many lacking their pensions, and many desperately needing a raise. Not to mention a union who will say things like "if you don't sign it the next one will be worse" or "if you fight we'll be AMR/APA 2.0!" Hence the need for GK to as quickly as possible wrestle leverage away from the FL pilots with the threat of liquidation or for DAL/NWA to remind the pilots of the need to merge in the face of higher fuel costs and pending economic collapse. The not as bright management teams seem to always dig in like it's a good economy and therein waste time and money- UCAL, AMR and USAir come to mind. A smarter team would've figured out how to get things done faster at those three airlines and save a lot of time and make a lot more money. Therefore, I think our leverage is that our company understands the value of time and money and the true costs of labor unrest and so IF that is the case and speed is their motivation- in the name of leverage why then should we be in a hurry? Why should we buy into the threat of becoming AMR/APA 2.0 if we ask too much? That to me is a way to just a ploy to give up our leverage. After all if we knew now that in 2Q 2013 that Delta plans to acquire HI, why in the world should we accept 15% + COLA YOY to just have a contract done by the amendable date? Not saying that's the plan, just saying speed is not always of the essence and so if that's our leverage let's not give it away. Because remember we won't get paid what we're worth but rather by what we negotiate - and we negotiate on leverage. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to brainstorm beyond pay rates and living under the notion that time is not on our side. |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1088640)
...Why should we buy into the threat of becoming AMR/APA 2.0? That to me is a way to just a ploy to give up our leverage. After all if we knew now that in 2Q 2013 that Delta plans to acquire HI, why in the world should we accept 15% + COLA YOY to just have a contract done by the amendable date? Not saying that's the plan, just saying speed is not always of the essence and so if that's our leverage let's not give it away. Because remember we won't get paid what we're worth but rather by what we negotiate - and we negotiate on leverage.
There will be more consolidation in this industry, it's just a matter of survival. We are fortunate to have RA who enjoys the game of chess. He doesn't need the job or the money. I'm guessing it's really more about having a hand at reshaping an entire industry that makes him stay on the job. He still has a bunch of moves up his sleeve and our silly pilot contract is nothing but a speed bump in the road. Our currency or leverage is exactly what FTB pointed out - we have the ability to torpedo a potential deal or derail the big-picture long-term plan. RA knows this and that's why he knew he had to "grease the skids" to consummate the DAL NWA merger. That's why our Section 1 better be a big-time focus for the next contract. We probably will never make it leak proof, but we better get a good start at patching up the existing holes. Acknowledging the existing deficiencies is the first step in crafting more solid future defenses. As hard as it is to recapture better pay rates from the past, it's even more difficult to recapture scope once the flying has moved elsewhere. Cheers George |
Look at it this way, we own the high ground. To give it up will take a good amount of money.
And yet we're being told from within to give up the high ground then negotiate? :confused: If Delta values money over time we don't have the high ground in any way shape or form. But if the company values time over money, we do. So why aim low for expediency? Aim high and don't be concerned about how long it takes because we're not in a hurry... they are. Now am I being anti-company? Hell no. I need this airline to last 30-40 years. I want them to do what's right but negotiations aren't emotional, they're business. And we can figure it out but the threat of becoming AMR/APA 2.0 or slapped by the NMB is a ruse to surrender leverage. |
Newly announced, 7ER Summer only:
Summer Seasonal Detroit – Paris Jun – Sep 2012 DL590 DTW - CDG DL591 CDG - DTW Still cancelled: Atlanta – Athens (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Copenhagen (1 Daily 767) Atlanta – Moscow Sheremetyevo (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Prague (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Tel Aviv (4 weekly 777) New York JFK – Berlin (6 weekly 767) New York JFK – Budapest (6 weekly 767) New York JFK – Manchester (1 Daily 752) How many did the other half cancel? Cheers George |
Originally Posted by georgetg
(Post 1088662)
Newly announced, 7ER Summer only:
Summer Seasonal Detroit – Paris Jun – Sep 2012 DL590 DTW - CDG DL591 CDG - DTW Still cancelled: Atlanta – Athens (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Copenhagen (1 Daily 767) Atlanta – Moscow Sheremetyevo (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Prague (4 weekly 767) Atlanta – Tel Aviv (4 weekly 777) New York JFK – Berlin (6 weekly 767) New York JFK – Budapest (6 weekly 767) New York JFK – Manchester (1 Daily 752) How many did the other half cancel? Cheers George I believe their gauge changed down in atl from a 777-300 to a 777-200, and LAX was upgauged to a 380. |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1088640)
Here let's be pilot B for a moment, what do you think Delta's motivation is for C2012?
Off the top of my head I think Delta wants the minimal amount of changes and improvements necessary to complete this contract as soon as possible so as to move on to other things, like another merger. I think speed will be important to Delta because you don't want to give the one unionized group the leverage to slow down or disrupt business objectives. I think this management team is a very astute one. They are not AMR. I think they'll assess the situation at hand and move with a contract that can be signed by 51%. When I say situation at hand I mean you don't have to offer much to this pilot group but you can't go so low as to cause ALPA to be ousted. I think given the way Delta has acted towards the DPA to date and some of these MOUs I see a minimum floor of improvements to avoid unrest. Because to me it seems as if moving quickly is the key to success for smart companies and airlines. But you don't have to go very high to get passage either because this is a group of pilots nearing retirement in a bad economy, many lacking their pensions, and many desperately needing a raise. Not to mention a union who will say things like "if you don't sign it the next one will be worse" or "if you fight we'll be AMR/APA 2.0!" Hence the need for GK as quickly as possible to wrestle that leverage away from the FL pilots with the threat of liquidation or for DAL/NWA to remind the pilots of the need to merge in the face of higher fuel costs and then a pending economic collapse. The not as bright management teams seem to dig in like it's a good economy and waste time and money, UCAL, AMR and USAir come to mind. A smarter team would've figured out how to get things done faster at those three airlines and save a lot of time and make a lot more money. Therefore, I think our leverage is that our company understands the value of time and money and the true costs of labor unrest and so IF speed is their motivation- why then should we be in a hurry? Why should we buy into the threat of becoming AMR/APA 2.0? That to me is a way to just a ploy to give up our leverage. After all if we knew now that in 2Q 2013 that Delta plans to acquire HI, why in the world should we accept 15% + COLA YOY to just have a contract done by the amendable date? Not saying that's the plan, just saying speed is not always of the essence and so if that's our leverage let's not give it away. Because remember we won't get paid what we're worth but rather by what we negotiate - and we negotiate on leverage. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to brainstorm beyond pay rates and living under the notion that time is not on our side. FTB: Very clear, nicely written, insightful. If you (the pilot reading) have not owned a business or been senior management at a company, this is how it works and how they think...within fiscal linits. The pilot contract is just a speedbump. Its a 5 minute briefing item once a week. |
AE decision crunch time.
VDing from atl 767a to left coast. Vacillating btw 7er & 73n. Flown both. Going to live in the laguna niguel/dana point area. 73n plus: no. 4 a, i.e., perfect schedule. Would fly 90%+ of my trips from sna, i.e., reasonable drive. GS every mo. minus: @ 6ft tall, transcons in that cockpit remind me of my time @ navy sere school! Looks like alot of transcons! 7er plus: grt cockpit/jet, grt mix of flying, could hold asia @ least 6mo./yr. minus: 1/3 from bottom, would require me to continue my daily schedule involvement, i.e., drop all trips & p/u m thru sa trips...works extremely well, but after 8yrs of doing this...a bit of a pita. After checking oct/nov daily open time awards, looks very doable. Any thoughts grtly appreciated. p.s. how long to drive to lax from laguna/dana during rush hours & visa versa. also, when exactly are the rush hours on this route. Thx. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1088592)
You've done far worse than that sailingfun. You've intimated that DALPA's opener won't be anywhere near SWA and it will be because it's what the PILOTS want. Classic defeatist attitude that you and DALPA are trying to get everyone to adopt before Section 6 begins.
I don't know why you do these things. All the flight pay loss in world wouldn't allow me to do what you're doing. Carl "like to see us attempt to achieve SWA pilot pay rates on the MD88 with the rest of the fleets adjusted accordingly. That will put our actual block hour pilot costs quite a bit above SW. I also wanted significant raises each year of the contract in addition to the upfront raise." |
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