Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-10-2012 | 05:56 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
tj
Agree with your thoughts. But, correct me if I'm mistaken; weren't we relative seniority, then a pull and plug method used to provide equity for future attrition?
The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
There are about 1800 pilots here at DAL above me that have were hired after me. For those of you still reading this, I don't lie in bed at night gnashing my teeth over this, but if we set the template for a smooth and relatively non-hostile SLI by calmly accepting relative seniority as the new normal all the angst about other airlines hiring and those new pilots coming over on top of us is pretty ironic. We made our bed and we'll have to lie in it at a time not of our choosing. Yeah, yeah, I know the list is a product of arbitration, but the way we went about it set us up for the end result.
Deltaairlines(one word)
is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with less seniority.
Deltaairlines(one word)
is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with less seniority.The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
02-10-2012 | 06:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: LAX ERA
Actually, I think we ended up with a status and category list. The thing that was good for fNW guys is it only had 4 categories (wb capt, wb fo, nb capt, nb fo). That is now the template for future merger poiicy and if we merge with a carrier that flys small narrow body jets by guys chronologically younger, our junior guys will get hurt.
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Last edited by Ferd149; 02-10-2012 at 07:52 AM.
02-10-2012 | 06:05 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I wonder what the displaced co-pilots think of trip parking now? 
Classic "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario. 
For anyone not familiar:
The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen. This dilemma was described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons", written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1]
Scoop
Classic "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario. For anyone not familiar:
The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen. This dilemma was described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons", written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1]
Scoop
02-10-2012 | 06:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: blueJet
02-10-2012 | 06:34 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Actually, I think we ended up with a status and category list. The thing that was good for fNW guys is it only had 4 categories (wb capt, wb fo, nb capt, nb fo). It that is now the template for future merger poiicy and if we merge with a carrier that flys small narrow body jets by guys chronologically younger, our junior guys will get hurt.
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Reviewed the Arbitrator's findings while considering your post. He mostly got the fleet mix right, with the DC9's through 2012 and 18 757 & Airbus jets being parked. It was thought then those losses would be offset by 787 deliveries. Instead we got MD90's
That explains the triple displacement to the Mad Dog for many of us. (perhaps a bid through the A320 just to train on the thing and go for the Displacement Superfecta)
Displacement Superfecta - a type of wager in airline career betting in which the bettor, in order to win, must pick four sequential dead ends in the correct sequence. This is even more unlikely than a successful wager in the displacement trifecta, which requires correctly picking the worst three choices in order, and as such will have the correspondingly higher payoff of multiple type ratings to shop for jobs in the Middle East.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-10-2012 at 06:59 AM.
02-10-2012 | 07:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Scoop, agreed...maybe a published list is too harsh. Not quite sure if exploiting this loop-hole is "legal" per the contract or not. Allowed yes, legal, I admit I don't know--seems awfully gray.
My stance is if one couldn't walk into the ATL pilot lounge and proudly announce how they bid/got their schedule then they shouldn't be doing it.
Those that willingly exploit the trip-park loop-hole I would guess choose to remain rather discrete. I would hope that the majority of those that do trip-park do it without recognizing the harm it causes [junior] pilots.
Cubdrick
My stance is if one couldn't walk into the ATL pilot lounge and proudly announce how they bid/got their schedule then they shouldn't be doing it.
Those that willingly exploit the trip-park loop-hole I would guess choose to remain rather discrete. I would hope that the majority of those that do trip-park do it without recognizing the harm it causes [junior] pilots.
Cubdrick
Many years ago I flew a trip with a former Pan-Am pilot who had a great quote: "Never under estimate the greed of a pilot...".
Sums up the trip parking crowd pretty well.
02-10-2012 | 07:24 AM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Poodle Whisperer
FlightAware > Boeing Commercial Airplane Group #236 > 09-Feb-2012 > KBFI-KBFI Flight Tracker
They are still in the air! Drew "787" and the Boeing symbol for the last 19 hours. Wow.
They are still in the air! Drew "787" and the Boeing symbol for the last 19 hours. Wow.
02-10-2012 | 07:31 AM
Runs with scissors
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From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
I agree 100%!
One slight correction: DL has eighteen 777's. The first 8 are the ER's with Rolls Royce Trent 95's (95,000lbs. thrust), the newer 10 are LR's, with the (huge!) GE motors, 115,000lbs. thrust.
02-10-2012 | 07:39 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Kickin’ Back
In the Navy, my father flew the PBY, PBM, and Martin Mars among many other models. (He was a test pilot at PAX River in the 1950's.) He just turned 86 on Feb. 6th. I believe some of the Mars are still flying as firefighters up on Vancouver Island.
Denny
Denny
02-10-2012 | 07:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2012
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tjAgree with your thoughts. But, correct me if I'm mistaken; weren't we relative seniority, then a pull and plug method used to provide equity for future attrition?
The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
)like it once did. Many of us need more W2 to retire successfully and the company's actions since I filled out my contract survey makes me think I shot too low. As for someone taking a leave and coming back senior to himself, I would only have the deepest respect for that kind of chutzpah- my momma didn't raise that clever a boy.
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