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Originally Posted by Schwanker
(Post 1134594)
FATboy,
I think your shooting inside the circle. I believe Jungle would like our scope tightened to get more jobs (like his) at the mainline. Maybe I'm wrong... |
Originally Posted by JungleBus
(Post 1134563)
I see we're talking outsourcing again so I'll add a little fuel to the fire. Overworked DC9 and MD80 guys, here's my current trip that could be yours, if only the E175 "RJ" was flown in-house.
Day 1: MSP-MDW-MSP-BZN. 15 hour overnight in Bozeman eating free hotwings and drinking $3 Moose Drool. Day 2: BZN-SLC-SNA. Done by 9:30am, 20 hour overnight in sunny Orange County CA. Day 3: SNA-SLC-YVR. In by 1pm, 17 hours in Vancouver BC hanging out at the Flying Beaver. Day 4: YVR-MSP-ORD-MSP. Back in time for most commuters to catch their ride home. That 1200nm leg from YVR to MSP is sure "regional," eh? But hey, DALPA has no interest in recapturing this flying. Really, what mainline pilot would want to lower themselves to this?? |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1134599)
They also wanted to point out that they flew 85 hrs a month, which I laughed at since that is the norm for a line holder here too.
I personally heard the CEO of Qatar Airways tell of firing a Captain for improper uniform wear while awaiting his room at a layover hotel. The good...crew stays at same hotel as CEO, the bad...no protection, no labor law, and unions are illegal. They make the rules and they enforce them as they see fit. |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 1134611)
85 block hours is not the norm here. Last year 87 pay hours was, and that includes vacation, training, removal and premium pay. Big difference. Most of the guys that I know that went there...left. Work environment, dislocaton, environmental and cultural differences made it unsustainable beyond 3 years.
I personally heard the CEO of Qatar Airways tell of firing a Captain for improper uniform wear while awaiting his room at a layover hotel. The good...crew stays at same hotel as CEO, the bad...no protection, no labor law, and unions are illegal. They make the rules and they enforce them as they see fit. Yes, they pull that stuff but apparently it has died down a ton. You are correct though, no union protection. As for the 85 hrs let me clarity. They are on three three month rolling blocks. There is a junior middle and senior bid group. Every three months you move up one, and if you are in the top, the next period you are in the bottom. The 85 hrs is in the middle and upper blocks. As for work environment et al. I have many friends staying there going in to years six and seven with no plans to leave. Treat it like home and come to the states like most ExPats do and they have no issues. They make the rules Slow, but they are paying nicely as well. Given our position in the world airline industry and profitability this airline should want to attract those expats that are currently doing the math and realizing that dealing with the bs is far better that waiting on a legacy gig. That fact is very disheartening. |
Originally Posted by JungleBus
(Post 1134604)
Correct. You'll find very few people at CPS who are happy we're doing flying like this anywhere other than mainline. I can understand why it was given up in BK but have since been frustrated that DALPA feels zero need to look at recapturing scope. It's simply not a priority for them. It should be. As my post was meant to demonstrate, we're doing some pretty plum trips that any DC9/MD88/A320 guy would be happy to fly. Wasn't trying to be arrogant. Was trying to demonstrate this is something worth fighting for. There's been a whole lot of "wow, this stagnation sucks!" on the thread lately, and not so much "well let's do something about it!"
Even if you brought that 76 seat jet to mainline the cost disparities continue. A Delta CRJ-900 Captain would receive $116/hr and his FO would get $67/hr. On top of those hourly rates comes 14% DC, and the difference has to be applied to those on reserve as well. I don't know your rigs, but that trip would pay 21 hours on mainline. That's over $1900 difference in direct wages just for pilots on that 4 day trip, and that grossly understates the real labor number. Compass created a labor arbitrage. Management had the bankruptcy hammer to make it happen. That type of arbitrage is what is killing Comair and is about to hurt SKYW/ASA/Expressjet as they lose 12 airplanes to Gojets. It's all in the longevity. In your segment the "younger" pilot groups are winning. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1134601)
He's not arrogant, he is showing you a pattern/roster/trip/rotation that he flies and is pointing out that it is hardly "regional."
The only thing regional about my flying is the name of the jet and the size of the paycheck. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1134599)
Point is, this is what our competition is paying their pilots. The total package is impressive and if DAL does not want to see a bunch of guys that are in the dead zone and junior start looking/taking these gigs, they will need to pay significantly more, have organic growth, and provide career progression that is more than just retirements. ACL, There was a lot of talk about guys jumping ship during BK - but for the most part it did not happen. Interestingly though, I have 5 friends/acquaintances who have quit. Three fly corporate. One flies for FDX. One flies for Jet Blue. None are coming back to DAL. Fair disclosure - I also have a friend who was furloughed at DAL hired at FDX and then left FDX to return to DAL. All were hired in the 2000-2001 time-frame. The only other thing that they have in common is a military background - I guess the MIL retirement and/or reserve gig makes it easier to jump ship. Scoop |
Originally Posted by Lifeisgood
(Post 1134518)
Volaris pays their Captains 60K. I bet all SWA flying south of the border is here to stay done by them. Outsourcing to cheaper force works, but who knows.. I am just a pilot.
Southwest Airlines considers international flights from Hobby to Mexico | khou.com Houston MDW-Cancun SAT to Mexico City&Cancun Those are a lot of new WN/FL routes just in the last month. They have nothing to do with Volaris. Sorry to interrupt, back to stealth mode. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1134599)
Yep. Another one of my friends there went to the 380 so he could escape jr capt on the 330 after less than four years mind you. He will be a 380 Capt in two years when his lock is up.
Many of my friends over at EK and other places ran the numbers to come back to a Legacy job. Sadly, it does not compare. They all opted to stay put and are looking at 20+ years there. I started looking at their package versus ours and a first year FO with tax incentives, housing allowance, education allowance, profit sharing, and medical is looking at a job that would have to pay north of 200K here in the states to come close. -7900 a month income w/flight pay:tax free -3900 housing allowance -About a 1000 dollar a month education allowance. -All utilities except internet paid for -about 2000 a month in profit sharing -42 days of vacation a year -Annual leave PS ticket for you and your family anywhere EK flies -15% in to a retirement fund. That equates to 14800 a month all tax free. Only thing taxed is income about the 86K limit(After individual EIC deductions), which FO's do not hit and Capt's pay about 1000 a month to Uncle Sam. It is an impressive package. Of course there are not unions, and the company determines what, when and where you fly. Living in Dubai is also a must. They also wanted to point out that they flew 85 hrs a month, which I laughed at since that is the norm for a line holder here too. There are many contracts all over the world that pay above 12K a month. A quick internet search shows you they are plentiful. Point is, this is what our competition is paying their pilots. The total package is impressive and if DAL does not want to see a bunch of guys that are in the dead zone and junior start looking/taking these gigs, they will need to pay significantly more, have organic growth, and provide career progression that is more than just retirements. I know a few guys that would look at this stuff if they were offered three to five year leaves. (Again, sadly since we should be the pinnacle of the career) |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 1134620)
Then there's the math problem that stems from your creation in bankruptcy. The Captain on your flight made a max of $72 per hour. The FO made $37/hr. A Delta MD-88 Captain would make $168/hr, and his FO would make $112/hr. Those pay and longevity disparities go through all work groups. You were also flying a 76 seat jet. The MD-88 holds 142, so it's not likely the routes are currently economically operable with a larger aircraft in the timeslots you flew.
Even if you brought that 76 seat jet to mainline the cost disparities continue. A Delta CRJ-900 Captain would receive $116/hr and his FO would get $67/hr. On top of those hourly rates comes 14% DC, and the difference has to be applied to those on reserve as well. I don't know your rigs, but that trip would pay 21 hours on mainline. That's over $1600 difference in direct wages just for pilots on that 4 day trip, and that grossly understates the real labor number. Compass created a labor arbitrage. Management had the bankruptcy hammer to make it happen. That type of arbitrage is what is killing Comair and is about to hurt SKYW/ASA/Expressjet as they lose 12 airplanes to Gojets. It's all in the longevity. In your segment the "younger" pilot groups are winning. I agree with your numbers on the cost disparities, and your conclusion that longevity is the real key - not just regional vs mainline, but regional vs regional. I have no illusions that as Compass ages, it'll be used against us as well if the current system persists. Destroying the current 2-tier system is in the interest of all pilots with the exception of a few regional lifers. I think from our side, we need to drastically up our costs. We're partially doing that as we age, and partially as we get better contracts, but the problem is that as each regional gets more expensive another one takes its place - witness the creation of Compass. From your side, you need to start chipping away at the efficiencies of outsourcing. A good place to start would be limiting us to 70 seats in your next contract, and perhaps putting a minimum pay formula or minimum contract in place for all outsourced work, or requiring all new contracts be with ALPA carriers. Just thinking out loud here: the basic idea is that we both need to make outsourcing a more expensive proposition for the company. Ideally, the next contract would just bring everything 50+ seat inhouse, but without an extremely united pilot group and the ability to strike (ie very friendly white house) it's probably unrealistic. So I say the answer is to tweak the economics in mainline's favor. Curious about your thoughts on this, slowplay. 1) Do you think getting some of this sub-100 seat flying at mainline is a worthy goal and 2) If so, what do you think is the best way to go about it? |
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