Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-24-2012, 03:02 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I don't know if it is worth responding, because even when you are corrected on your facts, you continue to repeat falsehoods. It seems like you might be a more effective advocate if you would simply stick to the facts.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
2. Yes, the fact Delta management has bought airplanes to maximize allowances under scope documents this assertion. The fact Air France management in a coordinated effort with Delta management has reallocated their heavy metal across the Delta network shows the effect of the temporary relaxation in our JV enforcement protocol.
3. How many Delta managers voted at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting? Best I can recall, the number was, zero. D-ALPA did not want a merger in any event and stated their opinion via their vote.
4. Your being silly. Spirit is no comparison. Compass operates exclusively Delta flying, was owned by Delta and the NWA MEC had little difficulty with the Compass contract. Ideally, if you approached this correctly, you would desire Compass pilots be Delta pilots and thus covered by the Delta PWA.
5. Chairman McClain explained the process well in NWA's ziplines. The NWA MEC was proud of the fact bargaining credits were received in exchange for scope relaxation. Their publications are sufficient to show how the "partnership" worked. The resulting scope language was pasted into our current PWA. In addition, I am sure you are aware that folks outside the Delta MEC have our negotiators' notes. Let me know if you would like to broaden our public debate with more documentation (I've not seen them and base my opinion as to what was in those documents on the basis of the testimony published during depositions which were briefly online).
At the end of the day, if you prefer to externalize our scope failures, fine. I'm not trying to embarrass any of the truly good folks who represent us. It is water over the dam. My only goal is to focus on better policy going forward and get ALPA to fight outsourcing like the poison it is.
As for your personal insult, I'm quite comfortable calling it what it is. It takes a bit of integrity and confidence to post something here and then show up at every LEC meeting, make resolutions and participate in the process knowing some in the room would as soon rip my head off as look my way. I grew up in a better Delta and a better ALPA and expect we will all achieve that high standard. So call me what you will. You should be know readers will judge what they read here based on the objective data they can correlate and results.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-24-2012 at 03:51 PM.
02-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
What is this supposed announcement on Monday?
02-24-2012, 03:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by Gearjerk
There's no money in cargo.
TEN
02-24-2012, 03:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I don't know if it is worth responding, because even when you are corrected on your facts, you continue to repeat falsehoods. It seems like you might be a more effective advocate if you would simply stick to the facts.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
This just furthers my conviction that D-ALPA will eventually self-immolate. And you call yourselves leaders?
02-24-2012, 03:44 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Alpha (and those watching this debate),
Is Bill Swelbar also, as you state, "truly rotten to the core is how his self pity has taken him to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads him to post this drivel. Sometimes he has a decent insight into the industry and sometimes he is so helplessly self indulgent that he spews out any crap that enters his head." Because, he writes the exact same historical recap of ALPA negotiations on his blog:
Mainline Pilot Scope: Will Regional Carriers Be Permitted to Fly 90+ Seat*Aircraft? - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines
Like I said, lets post objective data, external sources, and verifiable results ... then let readers decide.
Is Bill Swelbar also, as you state, "truly rotten to the core is how his self pity has taken him to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads him to post this drivel. Sometimes he has a decent insight into the industry and sometimes he is so helplessly self indulgent that he spews out any crap that enters his head." Because, he writes the exact same historical recap of ALPA negotiations on his blog:
Mainline Pilot Scope: Will Regional Carriers Be Permitted to Fly 90+ Seat*Aircraft? - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines
Like I said, lets post objective data, external sources, and verifiable results ... then let readers decide.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-24-2012 at 03:56 PM.
02-24-2012, 03:53 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I don't know if it is worth responding, because even when you are corrected on your facts, you continue to repeat falsehoods. It seems like you might be a more effective advocate if you would simply stick to the facts.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
02-24-2012, 03:57 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I don't know, I can't read too much into the Alfa / Bar discussion.
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
02-24-2012, 04:04 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by TheManager
There you have it everyone. This, ^^^^ coming from a senior representative of DALPA that has sunk to the lowest levels of disgraceful behavior toward a fellow aviator. An absolutely abhorrent display Alpha.
This just furthers my conviction that D-ALPA will eventually self-immolate. And you call yourselves leaders?
This just furthers my conviction that D-ALPA will eventually self-immolate. And you call yourselves leaders?
02-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I guess I forgot that Kai used the term bargaining credit, my bad.
Q There's still a disagreement between the two sides with regard to whether ALPA should be receiving any type of credit for agreeing to that -- for deletion of the minimum block hours; correct?
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-24-2012 at 04:18 PM.
02-24-2012, 04:15 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by scambo1
I don't know, I can't read too much into the Alfa / Bar discussion.
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
Originally Posted by 76drvr
I thought this was an anonymous forum? Has Alpha ever claimed to be a senior representative of DALPA? Whoever Alpha is, he ought to have a right to express his opinion here without being outed as anything other than an anonymous poster, no? Once we go down the road of outing folks then this forum has lost it's value.
Then I feel sorry for him and pull my posts down.
Got no idea who Alpha or Sailing are, but they are generally well informed and add a lot to this site. I will state in general that if our MEC is ordering us around, they have their representational obligation backwards.
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