Details on Delta TA
09-08-2014 | 02:36 PM
#1671
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Likes: 0
Conventional wisdom seems to be that the company will again come after productivity in the next negotiation. As such, I certainly don't blame ALPA for asking us our feelings about the various ways in which management might seek to address that. We each need to give loud and clear answers to these questions, so that there is no ambiguity as to how the pilot group feels.
1) What happens if we don't get enough participation for the results to be meaningful?
2) What happens if we don't get a clear mandate on concessions? Do we bluff with the company?
3) What happens if there is a low turnout, say 30%, but 60% of 30% of pilots that bothered with the survey want vacation sell-backs (for example)? Do we have a duty to get vacation sell-backs for the pilots for 18% of the guys? Do we start buying the right to make concessions to please them?
4) If we're to be driving the process, is a month enough time to make a decision on some of the hard items? As the reps in at least two councils have stated, some of the items are, or could be, concessionary. The reps have been considering those for months, with SME's and costing data, but many pilots outside APC have never heard of some of the items.
I do have one question, though, for the crowd. Has anyone ever done or seen a study on whether it is better to become more productive (assuming that you can capture 100% of the value of that productivity in higher pay rates) or remain as is?
For example, suppose you make some sort of change in the contract that makes you more productive, e.g., higher ALV, pay banding, vacation sellback, whatever. Suppose further that you accurately determine the value of the resulting decrease in required staffing and increase pay rates by an equivalent amount.
The result is that each pilot will progress in his career at some slower rate, resulting in less seniority, slower upgrade, etc. At the same time, all pay rates will have been adjusted upward by some amount. Assuming the pilot flies the same number of hours or days either way, would the slower time to upgrade eventually overcome the higher pay rates overall, or vice versa, or would it make no difference?
Honest question -- I have no idea. Anybody?
For example, suppose you make some sort of change in the contract that makes you more productive, e.g., higher ALV, pay banding, vacation sellback, whatever. Suppose further that you accurately determine the value of the resulting decrease in required staffing and increase pay rates by an equivalent amount.
The result is that each pilot will progress in his career at some slower rate, resulting in less seniority, slower upgrade, etc. At the same time, all pay rates will have been adjusted upward by some amount. Assuming the pilot flies the same number of hours or days either way, would the slower time to upgrade eventually overcome the higher pay rates overall, or vice versa, or would it make no difference?
Honest question -- I have no idea. Anybody?
09-08-2014 | 02:44 PM
#1672
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
09-08-2014 | 02:45 PM
#1673
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
For example, suppose you make some sort of change in the contract that makes you more productive, e.g., higher ALV, pay banding, vacation sellback, whatever. Suppose further that you accurately determine the value of the resulting decrease in required staffing and increase pay rates by an equivalent amount.
We must demand more money AND more time off.
After all of our productivity givebacks, this is a CONCESSION.
What will it take for us to realize we're in the best negotiating environment we're likely to see in our careers. Maybe Sleepy Ed bragging to investors about a "cost neutral" contract? Is that what it will take?
Alert: Alan Shore is floating a reincarnation of DALPA's C12 "time value of money" garbage.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 09-08-2014 at 03:07 PM.
09-08-2014 | 02:48 PM
#1674
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
From: No to large RJs
Well, it seems one of our thin skinned moderators---johnso29---has taken it upon himself to ban Carl from APC under the guise of posting a cheerleader pic! Way to go johnso!
Love him or hate him, Carl adds a ton to the discussion here.
It's a sad state of affairs at APC when moderators don't act impartially.
Johnso you, like the ALPA, have a serious credibility problem.
Love him or hate him, Carl adds a ton to the discussion here.
It's a sad state of affairs at APC when moderators don't act impartially.
Johnso you, like the ALPA, have a serious credibility problem.
Carl was a thorn in the side of the association message. He had a target on his back. If he is banned, so should a long list of others!
09-08-2014 | 03:07 PM
#1677
Wind the clock beoch
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
What planet are you on 80? I didn't defend TC's communication. Sure it was a giant snafu. He realized his error, apologized, and moved on. You and sailing want to keep beating him over the head with it. As I pointed out earlier, you two are the exact type that want to gloss over an alleged criminal act by one (or more) pilots against another pilot. Yet you show no quarter for someone whose only "crime" was an ill-advised communication. Your standards are inconsistent and irreconcilable.
09-08-2014 | 03:13 PM
#1678
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
What planet are you on 80? I didn't defend TC's communication. Sure it was a giant snafu. He realized his error, apologized, and moved on. You and sailing want to keep beating him over the head with it. As I pointed out earlier, you two are the exact type that want to gloss over an alleged criminal act by one (or more) pilots against another pilot. Yet you show no quarter for someone whose only "crime" was an ill-advised communication. Your standards are inconsistent and irreconcilable.
09-08-2014 | 03:39 PM
#1679
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Conventional wisdom seems to be that the company will again come after productivity in the next negotiation. As such, I certainly don't blame ALPA for asking us our feelings about the various ways in which management might seek to address that. We each need to give loud and clear answers to these questions, so that there is no ambiguity as to how the pilot group feels.
I do have one question, though, for the crowd. Has anyone ever done or seen a study on whether it is better to become more productive (assuming that you can capture 100% of the value of that productivity in higher pay rates) or remain as is?
For example, suppose you make some sort of change in the contract that makes you more productive, e.g., higher ALV, pay banding, vacation sellback, whatever. Suppose further that you accurately determine the value of the resulting decrease in required staffing and increase pay rates by an equivalent amount.
The result is that each pilot will progress in his career at some slower rate, resulting in less seniority, slower upgrade, etc. At the same time, all pay rates will have been adjusted upward by some amount. Assuming the pilot flies the same number of hours or days either way, would the slower time to upgrade eventually overcome the higher pay rates overall, or vice versa, or would it make no difference?
Honest question -- I have no idea. Anybody?
I do have one question, though, for the crowd. Has anyone ever done or seen a study on whether it is better to become more productive (assuming that you can capture 100% of the value of that productivity in higher pay rates) or remain as is?
For example, suppose you make some sort of change in the contract that makes you more productive, e.g., higher ALV, pay banding, vacation sellback, whatever. Suppose further that you accurately determine the value of the resulting decrease in required staffing and increase pay rates by an equivalent amount.
The result is that each pilot will progress in his career at some slower rate, resulting in less seniority, slower upgrade, etc. At the same time, all pay rates will have been adjusted upward by some amount. Assuming the pilot flies the same number of hours or days either way, would the slower time to upgrade eventually overcome the higher pay rates overall, or vice versa, or would it make no difference?
Honest question -- I have no idea. Anybody?
But as long as bigger pays more, we will have to allow artificial seniority.
Couldn't resist.
Yes, I said ax.
09-08-2014 | 03:41 PM
#1680
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
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