Details on Delta TA
05-06-2015, 11:05 AM
#3881
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
I don't see Restoration as 'asking for the moon.'
Just write it all down, add up everything we GAVE UP in LOA's 46 and 51, add in the BILLIONS we LOST when they gave our DB plan to the PBGC, then publish that number (which I'm sure is well over $10 Billion over the past 11 years) and tell the company they can thank us for Saving Delta, by restoring us to pre-bankruptcy pay and benefits.
Pretty simple concept.
Not asking for the moon, just give us back what we gave up.
They've been spending Billions on stock buybacks and dividends, for the shareholders, time to pay back the worker bees too.
Just write it all down, add up everything we GAVE UP in LOA's 46 and 51, add in the BILLIONS we LOST when they gave our DB plan to the PBGC, then publish that number (which I'm sure is well over $10 Billion over the past 11 years) and tell the company they can thank us for Saving Delta, by restoring us to pre-bankruptcy pay and benefits.
Pretty simple concept.
Not asking for the moon, just give us back what we gave up.
They've been spending Billions on stock buybacks and dividends, for the shareholders, time to pay back the worker bees too.
05-06-2015, 11:21 AM
#3882
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Originally Posted by Timbo
When they cut our pay 42% AND flushed our DB plans, they didn't ask for one or the other, they took BOTH!
Well, now it's time to restore BOTH.
Well, now it's time to restore BOTH.
I totally agree. The only disagreement is on the best tactic to get it back. Reality dictates that we won't get it all back. Now how do we get the most back? Do what we are doing now.
American pilots quixotic quest for 50%+ (was it 62%?) pay raises a decade ago made them look like idiots and led nowhere. I want a pay raise. Not Picket's Charge.
05-06-2015, 01:04 PM
#3884
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,399
Originally Posted by Timbo
When they cut our pay 42% AND flushed our DB plans, they didn't ask for one or the other, they took BOTH!
Well, now it's time to restore BOTH.
Well, now it's time to restore BOTH.
Since they have already done that once, if we were to somehow miraculously get it restored, we all know that they would just go back to their old tactics again. I don't want our negotiators to waste one nanosecond or a spare breath trying to get a traditional DB plan back in our contract.
Now if you want to talk about increasing the company's DC contribution to approximate their cost of a restored DB plan...then I am all ears...
05-06-2015, 01:49 PM
#3885
Wind the clock beoch
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by Karnak
I thought that was the topic, too. Then you wrote this: "The rest of your list is already afforded through a line pilots decision to trade off with their overall seniority."
05-06-2015, 02:38 PM
#3886
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
I don't want a DB plan. It is nothing more than a promise to pay that management will hold over our head, threatening to terminate if we don't play ball and agree to concessions.
Since they have already done that once, if we were to somehow miraculously get it restored, we all know that they would just go back to their old tactics again. I don't want our negotiators to waste one nanosecond or a spare breath trying to get a traditional DB plan back in our contract.
Now if you want to talk about increasing the company's DC contribution to approximate their cost of a restored DB plan...then I am all ears...
Since they have already done that once, if we were to somehow miraculously get it restored, we all know that they would just go back to their old tactics again. I don't want our negotiators to waste one nanosecond or a spare breath trying to get a traditional DB plan back in our contract.
Now if you want to talk about increasing the company's DC contribution to approximate their cost of a restored DB plan...then I am all ears...
Here's some quick math in public. 2004 757/767 Capt. rate was about $265/hr. x 1000hrs./yr (and that's only flying 82 hours a month)= $ 265,000 per year.
Our DB retirement was 60% Final Average Earnings, which for that number above is $159,000 per year, for the rest of your life. Let's say you retire at 65 and die at 85. 20 years of $159,000 = $3,180,000.
That was our retirement plan. 60% FAE for the rest of your life, and when you died, 50% of it went to your spouse until she died.
Now, how long is it going to take you to put that amount of money into your DC plan, at 15% of what ever you are making for your career?
Let's take that amount, and divide it by 30 years of service. Hired at 35, retire at 65. You would have to put away $106,000 PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR, to accumulate that much.
Think your measly little 15% per year is ever going to do that for you?
Now, let's say over the course of your 30 year career, from new hire pay to end rate, you averaged $200K/yr. and the company put 15% of that into your DC plan, or $30K per year...for 30 years. What did that cost the company?
$900,000 vs. the $3,180,000 under the old 60% FAE.
Yeah, that's why we have a DC plan.
05-06-2015, 02:47 PM
#3887
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
[QUOTE=Timbo;1874929]
What year did you sit in it? When I sat in it, it was a rocking chair, and the purpose was to screen out any pilots with anger issues. I never had any anger issues...until DALPA sold us out, in LOA 51 and by flushing our DB plan, without even putting up a fight.
Same year as you. And no, it was a chair, everything isn't some conspiracy. Rocking vs not could mean a million different things. Try this: you were supposed to be comfortable during the interview which was a stressful situation. Doesn't that sound a lot more likely? As for the DB I lost a bunch as well and wasn't happy. It was 40 something % funded when it got dumped and as bad as I hate to admit it there wasn't much fight to be put up. I was more upset by the huge stock buybacks and lack of fuel hedging when gas was cheap that preceded BK. I thought a shortfall in pension funding was clearly gonna happen. At least the note and claim were substantial (in my case) and the fact they weren't counted as pension replacement monies increased our PBGC claim. Ancient history at this point. C15 negotiations are underway and we are discussing... a chair? OFG
Originally Posted by OldFlyGuy
What year did you sit in it? When I sat in it, it was a rocking chair, and the purpose was to screen out any pilots with anger issues. I never had any anger issues...until DALPA sold us out, in LOA 51 and by flushing our DB plan, without even putting up a fight.
05-06-2015, 02:48 PM
#3888
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
I know I didn't factor in any 'investment gains' in my above examples, but you get the point. The DC plan saves the company BILLIONS over them having to fund our DB plans.
Oh, and one other thing about that DC Plan, if the market tanks, and/or when the money runs out, you're done.
The DB plan paid you FOR LIFE, and then for your spouses life.
Oh, and one other thing about that DC Plan, if the market tanks, and/or when the money runs out, you're done.
The DB plan paid you FOR LIFE, and then for your spouses life.
05-06-2015, 03:02 PM
#3889
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
Originally Posted by Timbo
I agree 100%. I want the 'net worth' of my DB plan restored ($1.4 Million, 10 years ago) but I want it all in the bank of my choosing, IN MY NAME, not another hand job by the company.
Here's some quick math in public. 2004 757/767 Capt. rate was about $265/hr. x 1000hrs./yr (and that's only flying 82 hours a month)= $ 265,000 per year.
Our DB retirement was 60% Final Average Earnings, which for that number above is $159,000 per year, for the rest of your life. Let's say you retire at 65 and die at 85. 20 years of $159,000 = $3,180,000.
That was our retirement plan. 60% FAE for the rest of your life, and when you died, 50% of it went to your spouse until she died.
Now, how long is it going to take you to put that amount of money into your DC plan, at 15% of what ever you are making for your career?
Let's take that amount, and divide it by 30 years of service. Hired at 35, retire at 65. You would have to put away $106,000 PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR, to accumulate that much.
Think your measly little 15% per year is ever going to do that for you?
Now, let's say over the course of your 30 year career, from new hire pay to end rate, you averaged $200K/yr. and the company put 15% of that into your DC plan, or $30K per year...for 30 years. What did that cost the company?
$900,000 vs. the $3,180,000 under the old 60% FAE.
Yeah, that's why we have a DC plan.
Here's some quick math in public. 2004 757/767 Capt. rate was about $265/hr. x 1000hrs./yr (and that's only flying 82 hours a month)= $ 265,000 per year.
Our DB retirement was 60% Final Average Earnings, which for that number above is $159,000 per year, for the rest of your life. Let's say you retire at 65 and die at 85. 20 years of $159,000 = $3,180,000.
That was our retirement plan. 60% FAE for the rest of your life, and when you died, 50% of it went to your spouse until she died.
Now, how long is it going to take you to put that amount of money into your DC plan, at 15% of what ever you are making for your career?
Let's take that amount, and divide it by 30 years of service. Hired at 35, retire at 65. You would have to put away $106,000 PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR, to accumulate that much.
Think your measly little 15% per year is ever going to do that for you?
Now, let's say over the course of your 30 year career, from new hire pay to end rate, you averaged $200K/yr. and the company put 15% of that into your DC plan, or $30K per year...for 30 years. What did that cost the company?
$900,000 vs. the $3,180,000 under the old 60% FAE.
Yeah, that's why we have a DC plan.
Awaiting part 2.
05-06-2015, 03:14 PM
#3890
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Timbo
I know I didn't factor in any 'investment gains' in my above examples, but you get the point. The DC plan saves the company BILLIONS over them having to fund our DB plans.
Oh, and one other thing about that DC Plan, if the market tanks, and/or when the money runs out, you're done.
The DB plan promised to pay paid you FOR LIFE, and then for your spouses life.
Oh, and one other thing about that DC Plan, if the market tanks, and/or when the money runs out, you're done.
The DB plan promised to pay paid you FOR LIFE, and then for your spouses life.
I know that when my DB terminated, the money ran out and it was done. I've still got my MPPP and Note money, plus almost all the DC money except the worthless ESOP stock. I've also got another promise to pay from the PBGC.
No more DB for me. No thanks.
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