Details on Delta TA
#4631
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: number cruncher
Posts: 22
This is the problem with being a negotiator. You can't please all the constituents at once. Try convincing a 777A how "important" it is that a senior (and occasionally junior) FO should routinely expect to stay home and get paid for not working. Hint, you won't get far.
Conversely, try to convince a mid level 88 FO who was furloughed for 5 years how important it is to get even more vacation weeks for the senior widebody captains with 25+ years seniority!
Somewhere between all that they still have to negotiate a TA that will pass MEC muster and THEN the membership.
I don't envy the job.
Conversely, try to convince a mid level 88 FO who was furloughed for 5 years how important it is to get even more vacation weeks for the senior widebody captains with 25+ years seniority!
Somewhere between all that they still have to negotiate a TA that will pass MEC muster and THEN the membership.
I don't envy the job.
Very good post. I was flying with a guy a few years back and he relayed a conversation he had on his previous trip with a FO.
The Captain was complaining about something that had to do with the commuter policy and he was hoping we could improve conditions for commuters on C2012.
The FO responded that he lived in base and didn't think it was fair that negotiating capital should be squandered on something that only benefits a minority of pilots, albeit quite a few.
Without missing a beat the Captain responded "Well then why should any Captain above 737 sacrifice negotiating capital on small jet scope?"
He said you could virtually see the light bulb illuminate above the guys head in the cockpit. We must safeguard all aspects of our contract for all Pilots.
Bottom line folks: Everything we currently have in the contract has already been bought and paid for. We would be fools to concede anything with Profit sharing going through the roof.
And to those who say "Yeah, but who knows what will happen to PS in 5 years." Why would I care about what happens in 5 or 10 years when we are basically talking about a 3 year deal?
Scoop
The Captain was complaining about something that had to do with the commuter policy and he was hoping we could improve conditions for commuters on C2012.
The FO responded that he lived in base and didn't think it was fair that negotiating capital should be squandered on something that only benefits a minority of pilots, albeit quite a few.
Without missing a beat the Captain responded "Well then why should any Captain above 737 sacrifice negotiating capital on small jet scope?"
He said you could virtually see the light bulb illuminate above the guys head in the cockpit. We must safeguard all aspects of our contract for all Pilots.
Bottom line folks: Everything we currently have in the contract has already been bought and paid for. We would be fools to concede anything with Profit sharing going through the roof.
And to those who say "Yeah, but who knows what will happen to PS in 5 years." Why would I care about what happens in 5 or 10 years when we are basically talking about a 3 year deal?
Scoop
When referring to profit sharing, please make sure that you are not confusing the term concession with exchange. Whether the pilot group wants more/less/same profitsharing (we can only ASS-u-me since none of use have seen the survey and polling data), it is only a concession if we remain uncompensated for any alteration.
I, and I presume that you too, will evaluate any proposed alterations to the plan using strictly the math. Every dollar moved to another section of the contract must be accounted for before the remaining amounts can be measured for net gain to the pilot group. Most of us have a minimum this increase must be, regardless where the increases are made. QOL must be evaluated also. I'm not enthused about a PS change just for the sake of changing, but will entertain the concept if my other standards are met first.
The Reps/NC/MEC are pushing very hard and I do not believe we will see any TA unless they believe it is suitable. We, the line pilots, are the final arbiter of this process. I will vote accordingly and I presume all of the pilots on APC will also. Thus far there has been no indication that they have rushed this process. Working at an increased pace and rushing are distinctly different. I believe the pace has been intense, but not rushed. We will know it was rushed when/if we see a result that is substandard. Until then it is merely fear-mongering.
#4632
DAL and DALPA are partners. Their work together provides a non-labor strife and predictable future, where both UNION, UNION HEADS and MANAGERS capitalize on conformity.
60% of us are sheep. We will believe in what we are told and accept it with a grin on our face. RH is capitalizing on all of this.
It is our duty to pressure our REPS and or get guys like Farrell, London, Timbo, Jerry, Spackler, SOL etc into office. Until then, this UNION is nothing more than management's right hand man.
TEN
#4633
My rep confirms the sales job strategy is being mapped out by the MEC.
It will precede the TA's release, with a repetitive "catchphrase" (think: Time Value of Money) bombarding us early and often to wear us down and distract us from all the concessions. Exactly like C12.
He said a TA may already have been reached, (possibly explaining the crying fit by the NC member), and holdout reps are being softened up to try to milk a more favorable final tally to improve the optics (currently 11-8).
Everything the survey said not to touch...is on the chopping block. Pay has not been discussed at the MEC level. Pushing for 50%+1 from the pilot group, and not one vote more.
Apparently Harwood was berating a new rep, yelling and using multiple F-bombs, to pressure him to get on board.
BOHICA.
It will precede the TA's release, with a repetitive "catchphrase" (think: Time Value of Money) bombarding us early and often to wear us down and distract us from all the concessions. Exactly like C12.
He said a TA may already have been reached, (possibly explaining the crying fit by the NC member), and holdout reps are being softened up to try to milk a more favorable final tally to improve the optics (currently 11-8).
Everything the survey said not to touch...is on the chopping block. Pay has not been discussed at the MEC level. Pushing for 50%+1 from the pilot group, and not one vote more.
Apparently Harwood was berating a new rep, yelling and using multiple F-bombs, to pressure him to get on board.
BOHICA.
#4634
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: 73 lifer
Posts: 130
FYI, The JCBA was passed by this margin because SOMEBODY already went in and got their own deal prior to the NWA folks getting involved. Kinda difficult to do better when over half the pilot group already had "their deal".
There is a train of thought that maybe had we all done a contract together, we all would have been better off.
There is a train of thought that maybe had we all done a contract together, we all would have been better off.
Same management team and if you believe everyone on here the former NWA reps and former Delta reps are essentially the same today or are at least similar thinking as the merger teams.
The former conspiracy games even made it into our lawsuits like Tanksley where a judge literally points out from documents that the “[t]he Bartels clan wanted to get [cost containment] out on the hotline and Bill has fanned flames of set up/conspiracy."
You have one side of the MEC (based on what I've read here) attempting to negotiate and another side leaking out strange details for political reasons and trying to run the clock down (in hopes?) of generating pressure to make the deal better. Getting a deal early/on time (TVM) vs going full blown Section 6 (29 months of mediation).
Does anyone here think that going into mediation this March will yield a better deal looking at FedEx and UPS and SWA? Really?
Whatever the political hold up on the MEC is, both sides need to figure out what plan B is to reach a deal and not just default to "it's not my fault, the mediators did it." How long does anyone here think that Delta is going to drop everything and sit down with us. At some point all these management guys need to go back to running the airline. There's a reason the NMB requires we negotiate in good faith.
Dropping the stand ups out of FAR 117 had a price thrown around of a few million dollars. Which side was right? Do we want the flying or not? Apparently there is a price. I don't want crew meals. Other guys do.
LCA bidding...Delta will still buy the trips they need and guys will still be paid to stay home but it might not be biddable (if true) which only helps a few senior guys in reality. If it is true it sounds more like when MAC charter flying went into PCS for all of us instead of the Bubbas doing it all with a late night call from you favorite scheduler. Delta will still have to buy guys off trips for training like they do today.
#4635
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,399
The sooner you can remember that there are no sides, the better you will understand what is happening to us.
DAL and DALPA are partners. Their work together provides a non-labor strife and predictable future, where both UNION, UNION HEADS and MANAGERS capitalize on conformity.
DAL and DALPA are partners. Their work together provides a non-labor strife and predictable future, where both UNION, UNION HEADS and MANAGERS capitalize on conformity.
60% of us are sheep. We will believe in what we are told and accept it with a grin on our face.
RH is capitalizing on all of this.
It is our duty to pressure our REPS and or get guys like Farrell, London, Timbo, Jerry, Spackler, SOL etc into office. Until then, this UNION is nothing more than management's right hand man.
#4636
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
Wrong...It effects a very large number of first officers over time..As guys move on and upgrade it opens up bidding with LCA to more junior FO's. Not to mention the junior guys who have LCA swap into their trip..You sound like someone from ALPA trying to justify this concession. And it is a HUGE concession.
#4637
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Again... None of the usual suspects are denying the substance of the "rumors."
I think we can stop calling them "rumors" now.
Standing by for Dalpa to "get in front" of the TA with a professional grade indoctrination campaign.
I think we can stop calling them "rumors" now.
Standing by for Dalpa to "get in front" of the TA with a professional grade indoctrination campaign.
#4638
Are you God? Since when did you get blessed with the "knowledge" that the rest of us knuckleheads apparently just can't comprehend?
Glad to see you think so little of your fellow pilots. Guess what? We have brains and thought processes, even if they don't perfectly line up into your little conspiratorial world.
Is he? Says who, and for what benefit? What is his e-ville (heh, heh, heh) agenda?
It is our duty to pressure our reps. I know Timbo and Farrell and they are both great guys. I would trust either in an instant, and for a lifetime. The rest I don't know and based on their posting history am a bit dubious, to put it mildly.
Glad to see you think so little of your fellow pilots. Guess what? We have brains and thought processes, even if they don't perfectly line up into your little conspiratorial world.
Is he? Says who, and for what benefit? What is his e-ville (heh, heh, heh) agenda?
It is our duty to pressure our reps. I know Timbo and Farrell and they are both great guys. I would trust either in an instant, and for a lifetime. The rest I don't know and based on their posting history am a bit dubious, to put it mildly.
Look at the many smart people that get swindled daily. Fear tactics, misinformation, time constraints, made up exaggerated scenarios and back-room deals are the spark that light up the elaborate and costly "spin-machine" in which is used to take advantage of unsuspecting and trusting people like you.
We need to wake up and stop diluting our worth.
TEN
->Politicians are dirty. Power in the wrong hands is e-ville (heh,heh,heh).
#4639
I never said I was GOD.
Look at the many smart people that get swindled daily. Fear tactics, misinformation, time constraints, made up exaggerated scenarios and back-room deals are the spark that light up the elaborate and costly "spin-machine" in which is used to take advantage of unsuspecting and trusting people like you.
We need to wake up and stop diluting our worth.
TEN
->Politicians are dirty. Power in the wrong hands is e-ville (heh,heh,heh).
Look at the many smart people that get swindled daily. Fear tactics, misinformation, time constraints, made up exaggerated scenarios and back-room deals are the spark that light up the elaborate and costly "spin-machine" in which is used to take advantage of unsuspecting and trusting people like you.
We need to wake up and stop diluting our worth.
TEN
->Politicians are dirty. Power in the wrong hands is e-ville (heh,heh,heh).
Your perception of your fellow pilots is sad (for you). Thankfully it's not reality!
#4640
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 5-9 block, kill removing
Posts: 385
I'm glad you're on the front lines to protect the "unsuspecting and trusting". Thank you for your service to the pilot group. What would we do without your loaded opinions and conspiracy theories?
Your perception of your fellow pilots is sad (for you). Thankfully it's not reality!
Your perception of your fellow pilots is sad (for you). Thankfully it's not reality!
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