Details on Delta TA
05-29-2015 | 06:02 PM
#5101
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
I hope you don't mind if I admit openly to not seeking your endorsement for even-handedness. But OK, I'm going to dispassionately and politely tell you that you're barking up the wrong tree. We understood the company would be very profitable, because of the magnitude of the concessions. That wasn't even a question.
In the spirit of fairness, I'll help a little bit, by suggesting a lot of guys tweaked and improved the PS. Some of the guys you have a strange hatred (is that word OK?) for, some which are more agreeable to the reps whose praise you sing.
Anyway, you're standing on your own crank on this topic.
As far as your other question, I'm just speculating here, but I would imagine it's because they see a way to get get some value for some modifications. I think that idea has gained traction. It's been a while since IAV84DAL crashed and burned here, so I never got to give a grudging partial apology, but the idea does roll around and around in your brain, when you do the arithmetic of No QOL concessions + payraise increase we want + PS = something we can gain. Wouldn't play well online, but maybe there is some convergence of pilot guidance and MEC/NC strategy? I'm not saying I know this to be true, since neither one of us does, I'm just saying that a lot of these ridiculous gyrations we're going through with APC politics now don't change the fact that most everyone wants to see a product they can vote on, and probably don't expect to pay the cost of political infighting. I bet you want to see a deal, and I want to see a deal, and Jerry wants to see a deal, and everyone here wants the NC to succeed, deep down inside. If nothing else, it'll be something new to argue about.
So I suspect these hints about PS, and the obvious "at-risk" language change prime us for it. But first, we must have 100-150 pages talking about hypthetical heroes in a council or another who would never ever touch PS in a world that doesn't exist, vs the pricks that are standing on top of PS's corpse with a dagger, and a pillow with ether in it, or some nonsense.
In the end, I want the process followed, the best deal we can, no deal if it doesn't meet our requirements, and as little self-inflicted damage as possible.
There. I just told you the truth. How's that for even-handed?
In the spirit of fairness, I'll help a little bit, by suggesting a lot of guys tweaked and improved the PS. Some of the guys you have a strange hatred (is that word OK?) for, some which are more agreeable to the reps whose praise you sing.
Anyway, you're standing on your own crank on this topic.
As far as your other question, I'm just speculating here, but I would imagine it's because they see a way to get get some value for some modifications. I think that idea has gained traction. It's been a while since IAV84DAL crashed and burned here, so I never got to give a grudging partial apology, but the idea does roll around and around in your brain, when you do the arithmetic of No QOL concessions + payraise increase we want + PS = something we can gain. Wouldn't play well online, but maybe there is some convergence of pilot guidance and MEC/NC strategy? I'm not saying I know this to be true, since neither one of us does, I'm just saying that a lot of these ridiculous gyrations we're going through with APC politics now don't change the fact that most everyone wants to see a product they can vote on, and probably don't expect to pay the cost of political infighting. I bet you want to see a deal, and I want to see a deal, and Jerry wants to see a deal, and everyone here wants the NC to succeed, deep down inside. If nothing else, it'll be something new to argue about.
So I suspect these hints about PS, and the obvious "at-risk" language change prime us for it. But first, we must have 100-150 pages talking about hypthetical heroes in a council or another who would never ever touch PS in a world that doesn't exist, vs the pricks that are standing on top of PS's corpse with a dagger, and a pillow with ether in it, or some nonsense.
In the end, I want the process followed, the best deal we can, no deal if it doesn't meet our requirements, and as little self-inflicted damage as possible.
There. I just told you the truth. How's that for even-handed?
Best think on this some.
Carl
05-29-2015 | 06:03 PM
#5102
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
05-29-2015 | 06:06 PM
#5103
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
05-29-2015 | 06:07 PM
#5104
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,327
Likes: 818
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
Background...
Delta Pilots Ratify Five-Year Contract, Boosting Carrier's Costs by $2.4 Billion - WSJ
All 5 years of C2K cost Delta 2.4B or 480m/yr
We just paid 500m to shareholders in 1 quarter.
We did this while...
Writing down hedges
Prepaying pension obligations
Paying down debt
Setting aside for profit sharing
And...
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Having the best first quarter ever in the industry!
Like ever. I mean in history. EVER. E-V-E-R
But I'm just sayin...
4/8/3/3, we will get them next time for sure, time value of money, at risk compensation... (except its not at risk because its already accounted for and disclosed. Read... in the bank waiting)
Delta Pilots Ratify Five-Year Contract, Boosting Carrier's Costs by $2.4 Billion - WSJ
All 5 years of C2K cost Delta 2.4B or 480m/yr
We just paid 500m to shareholders in 1 quarter.
We did this while...
Writing down hedges
Prepaying pension obligations
Paying down debt
Setting aside for profit sharing
And...
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Having the best first quarter ever in the industry!
Like ever. I mean in history. EVER. E-V-E-R
But I'm just sayin...
4/8/3/3, we will get them next time for sure, time value of money, at risk compensation... (except its not at risk because its already accounted for and disclosed. Read... in the bank waiting)
Last edited by notEnuf; 05-29-2015 at 06:42 PM.
05-29-2015 | 06:45 PM
#5105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 2
From: Capt
Background...
Delta Pilots Ratify Five-Year Contract, Boosting Carrier's Costs by $2.4 Billion - WSJ
All 5 years of C2K cost Delta 2.4B or 480m/yr
We just paid 500m to shareholders in 1 quarter.
We did this while...
Writing down hedges
Prepaying pension obligations
Paying down debt
Setting aside for profit sharing
And...
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Having the best first quarter ever in the industry!
Like ever. I mean in history. EVER. E-V-E-R
But I'm just sayin...
4/8/3/3, we will get them next time for sure, time value of money, at risk compensation... (except its not at risk because its already accounted for and disclosed. Read... in the bank waiting)
Delta Pilots Ratify Five-Year Contract, Boosting Carrier's Costs by $2.4 Billion - WSJ
All 5 years of C2K cost Delta 2.4B or 480m/yr
We just paid 500m to shareholders in 1 quarter.
We did this while...
Writing down hedges
Prepaying pension obligations
Paying down debt
Setting aside for profit sharing
And...
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Having the best first quarter ever in the industry!
Like ever. I mean in history. EVER. E-V-E-R
But I'm just sayin...
4/8/3/3, we will get them next time for sure, time value of money, at risk compensation... (except its not at risk because its already accounted for and disclosed. Read... in the bank waiting)
05-29-2015 | 07:04 PM
#5106
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,327
Likes: 818
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
Maybe contract language that says:
You may opt out of profit sharing for 15/10/5/5 or retain profit sharing and you get a part of the larger pie left by those who opted out. Win/win. No need for discourse or complaining because of self determination.
Oops. Sorry! My bad, colored outside the lines...
I will try to confine my thinking to the inside of the box. Darn now I lost my street cred. I guess I will have to stick to the facts and reference my data when I post online!
You may opt out of profit sharing for 15/10/5/5 or retain profit sharing and you get a part of the larger pie left by those who opted out. Win/win. No need for discourse or complaining because of self determination.
Oops. Sorry! My bad, colored outside the lines...
I will try to confine my thinking to the inside of the box. Darn now I lost my street cred. I guess I will have to stick to the facts and reference my data when I post online!
Last edited by notEnuf; 05-29-2015 at 07:20 PM.
05-29-2015 | 07:06 PM
#5107
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Call Profit Sharing a Bonus and Wall Street won't have a problem with us having it. Profit Sharing = profit reduction in their eyes, bonuses... now that's just the cost of doing business.
/Deep Thoughts
/Deep Thoughts
05-29-2015 | 07:48 PM
#5108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
We first got profit sharing in POS96. It paid on a ratio of income to revenue, and didn't pay until the company met a ratio of 2%. It was capped at 10% of pilot income (though it never made it that high). The plan paid 3.2% of pay for the 2 months of Delta's FY96 that remained, and 5% for FY97. That plan was modified (monetized) in 1998 to a flat 6% of income. Profit sharing wasn't included in C2K. C2K pay rates compounded upon that monetized profit sharing for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. Only 2000 would have had profit sharing paid under the old plan, but the contractual pay raises continued until 5 months before the amendable date even though we had 1310 pilots on furlough, our pension plan headed towards termination, and our company headed towards bankruptcy.
Profit sharing returned as part of LOA 46 in November, 2004. It had 3 tiers, $0 up to $500M PTIX, 10% up to $1.5B PTIX, and 20% over $2.5B PTIX. It never paid.
As part of LOA-51 in April, 2006, profit sharing plan was improved. We got 15% first dollar up to $1.5B and 20% above that. That plan paid nothing in 2006, and 5.5% in 2007.
Profit sharing was modified again by the JCBA, with 15% of first dollar through $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5B to reflect the increased scale and revenue base of the newly merged Delta-NWA. It paid $0 in 2008 and 2009, then 6.52% in 2010, 4.85% in 2011, and 6.67% in 2012.
We all know the changes that C2012 brought, where we monetized $43 million of profit sharing into pay rates (approx. 2% at that time) by reducing the percentage of the first $2.5B PTIX from 15% to 10%. The plan paid 8.26% in 2013 and 16.58% in 2014.
NWA also had profit sharing plans through the years with several changes in the varying CBAs. Their profit sharing plans paid as follows:
1998 - 0.2%
1999 - 0.5%
2000 - 0%
2001 - 0%
2002 - 0%
2003 - 0%
2004 - 0%
2005 - 0%
2006 - 1.85%
2007 - 3.77%
Saying that nobody believed that we'd hit the $2.5B PTIX number isn't correct. Saying that in April 2012 only the most optimistic projections had 2014 PTIX at $4.5B , or 2015-2017 above $5B would be correct, from my point of view. Whether it has been an ATC shutdown, middle east war, terrorism, fuel spikes, financial crisis or economic uncertainty, since deregulation something has always managed to bring the airlines down. Now that the industry is a little more rational, maybe things will be different.
05-29-2015 | 07:55 PM
#5109
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,599
Likes: 2
For a guy hired in 2007 you've got a pretty good memory! Here's a little history of profit sharing at Delta.
We first got profit sharing in POS96. It paid on a ratio of income to revenue, and didn't pay until the company met a ratio of 2%. It was capped at 10% of pilot income (though it never made it that high). The plan paid 3.2% of pay for the 2 months of Delta's FY96 that remained, and 5% for FY97. That plan was modified (monetized) in 1998 to a flat 6% of income. Profit sharing wasn't included in C2K. C2K pay rates compounded upon that monetized profit sharing for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. Only 2000 would have had profit sharing paid under the old plan, but the contractual pay raises continued until 5 months before the amendable date even though we had 1310 pilots on furlough, our pension plan headed towards termination, and our company headed towards bankruptcy.
Profit sharing returned as part of LOA 46 in November, 2004. It had 3 tiers, $0 up to $500M PTIX, 10% up to $1.5B PTIX, and 20% over $2.5B PTIX. It never paid.
As part of LOA-51 in April, 2006, profit sharing plan was improved. We got 15% first dollar up to $1.5B and 20% above that. That plan paid nothing in 2006, and 5.5% in 2007.
Profit sharing was modified again by the JCBA, with 15% of first dollar through $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5B to reflect the increased scale and revenue base of the newly merged Delta-NWA. It paid $0 in 2008 and 2009, then 6.52% in 2010, 4.85% in 2011, and 6.67% in 2012.
We all know the changes that C2012 brought, where we monetized $43 million of profit sharing into pay rates (approx. 2% at that time) by reducing the percentage of the first $2.5B PTIX from 15% to 10%. The plan paid 8.26% in 2013 and 16.58% in 2014.
NWA also had profit sharing plans through the years with several changes in the varying CBAs. Their profit sharing plans paid as follows:
1998 - 0.2%
1999 - 0.5%
2000 - 0%
2001 - 0%
2002 - 0%
2003 - 0%
2004 - 0%
2005 - 0%
2006 - 1.85%
2007 - 3.77%
Saying that nobody believed that we'd hit the $2.5B PTIX number isn't correct. Saying that only the most optimistic projections had 2014 PTIX at $4.5B , or 2015-2017 above $5B would be correct, from my point of view. Whether it has been an ATC shutdown, middle east war, terrorism, fuel spikes, financial crisis or economic uncertainty, since deregulation something has always managed to bring the airlines down. Now that the industry is a little more rational, maybe things will be different.
We first got profit sharing in POS96. It paid on a ratio of income to revenue, and didn't pay until the company met a ratio of 2%. It was capped at 10% of pilot income (though it never made it that high). The plan paid 3.2% of pay for the 2 months of Delta's FY96 that remained, and 5% for FY97. That plan was modified (monetized) in 1998 to a flat 6% of income. Profit sharing wasn't included in C2K. C2K pay rates compounded upon that monetized profit sharing for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. Only 2000 would have had profit sharing paid under the old plan, but the contractual pay raises continued until 5 months before the amendable date even though we had 1310 pilots on furlough, our pension plan headed towards termination, and our company headed towards bankruptcy.
Profit sharing returned as part of LOA 46 in November, 2004. It had 3 tiers, $0 up to $500M PTIX, 10% up to $1.5B PTIX, and 20% over $2.5B PTIX. It never paid.
As part of LOA-51 in April, 2006, profit sharing plan was improved. We got 15% first dollar up to $1.5B and 20% above that. That plan paid nothing in 2006, and 5.5% in 2007.
Profit sharing was modified again by the JCBA, with 15% of first dollar through $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5B to reflect the increased scale and revenue base of the newly merged Delta-NWA. It paid $0 in 2008 and 2009, then 6.52% in 2010, 4.85% in 2011, and 6.67% in 2012.
We all know the changes that C2012 brought, where we monetized $43 million of profit sharing into pay rates (approx. 2% at that time) by reducing the percentage of the first $2.5B PTIX from 15% to 10%. The plan paid 8.26% in 2013 and 16.58% in 2014.
NWA also had profit sharing plans through the years with several changes in the varying CBAs. Their profit sharing plans paid as follows:
1998 - 0.2%
1999 - 0.5%
2000 - 0%
2001 - 0%
2002 - 0%
2003 - 0%
2004 - 0%
2005 - 0%
2006 - 1.85%
2007 - 3.77%
Saying that nobody believed that we'd hit the $2.5B PTIX number isn't correct. Saying that only the most optimistic projections had 2014 PTIX at $4.5B , or 2015-2017 above $5B would be correct, from my point of view. Whether it has been an ATC shutdown, middle east war, terrorism, fuel spikes, financial crisis or economic uncertainty, since deregulation something has always managed to bring the airlines down. Now that the industry is a little more rational, maybe things will be different.
05-29-2015 | 08:00 PM
#5110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
I may have been hired in 2007, but I've been familiar with what Delta pilots have went through for quite a few years before that. Not quite as familiar as your PS synopsis, but I know there were not many guys in 2004 that thought Delta was going to turn a 2.5 Billion in profit in one year. You were probably the only one.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
