Details on Delta TA
08-23-2014, 10:30 AM
#752
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Timbo
Because of what happened to American, that is always the DALPA answer.
The issue that nobody at DALPA wants to talk about is, So WHAT?
If I were Lee Moak, or Mike D, I would say to the NMB, "You park us, we park the airplanes, period." No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
Is that an illegal job action? Yup. Is Lee or MD going to go to jail, to get your pay and pension restored? Nope. That's why they won't even say the word.
But absent that threat, we have no real leverage, other than begging for 3% raises, after taking 42% pay cuts.
What was it Richard said, "Labor risk has been taken off the table..."
Without Labor Risk, we have no leverage.
So bend over and take C2015 in the pooper, again. You will NEVER see 'restoration' absent the threat of a job action. Richard is not going to throw that much money at us just because he likes us. If however, his billions of Delta Shares were to drop in value, due to pilot unrest....well...now we may be getting somewhere! But we don't have the leadership to pull it off. And to be honest, we don't have the membership to pull it off either. What did you think that rocking chair was for?
The issue that nobody at DALPA wants to talk about is, So WHAT?
If I were Lee Moak, or Mike D, I would say to the NMB, "You park us, we park the airplanes, period." No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
Is that an illegal job action? Yup. Is Lee or MD going to go to jail, to get your pay and pension restored? Nope. That's why they won't even say the word.
But absent that threat, we have no real leverage, other than begging for 3% raises, after taking 42% pay cuts.
What was it Richard said, "Labor risk has been taken off the table..."
Without Labor Risk, we have no leverage.
So bend over and take C2015 in the pooper, again. You will NEVER see 'restoration' absent the threat of a job action. Richard is not going to throw that much money at us just because he likes us. If however, his billions of Delta Shares were to drop in value, due to pilot unrest....well...now we may be getting somewhere! But we don't have the leadership to pull it off. And to be honest, we don't have the membership to pull it off either. What did you think that rocking chair was for?
This is exactly right folks. 100% correct. I wrote this after the debacle of our FAR 117 negotiations:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Given what we've seen with the Dickson memo and 117 negotiations, our MEC chairman should be writing a letter similar to this:
"...all indications are that C2015 negotiations are going to be very tough given our desires for an industry leading contract in all areas, and management's desire to keep us at an industry average. Therefore we must begin the preparations for an option we hope we won't have to use - a strike. If a strike is ultimately called for by our members, it's imperative that all our families are prepared for a pay interruption. With deadlocked negotiations possibly taking two years and another year before they begin, we all have about three years to begin saving for our family's emergency fund. We recommend a minimum of 9 months living expenses be saved. Hopefully management will be reasonable and see the value of having the best pilots in the industry, but we must be prepared if they're not..."
The fact that this is not happening right now, leads me to believe DALPA has no intention of pursuing our ultimate weapon. No matter what.
"...all indications are that C2015 negotiations are going to be very tough given our desires for an industry leading contract in all areas, and management's desire to keep us at an industry average. Therefore we must begin the preparations for an option we hope we won't have to use - a strike. If a strike is ultimately called for by our members, it's imperative that all our families are prepared for a pay interruption. With deadlocked negotiations possibly taking two years and another year before they begin, we all have about three years to begin saving for our family's emergency fund. We recommend a minimum of 9 months living expenses be saved. Hopefully management will be reasonable and see the value of having the best pilots in the industry, but we must be prepared if they're not..."
The fact that this is not happening right now, leads me to believe DALPA has no intention of pursuing our ultimate weapon. No matter what.
After I wrote that, all the rocking chair victims like tsquare, Sink r8, etc., came absolutely unglued. Whether we have the membership to do what's necessary to achieve a pilot contract that leads the industry in every category is an entirely open question.
Carl
08-23-2014, 10:32 AM
#753
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Originally Posted by gzsg
While some would contend we have little leverage, I disagree. We have all the leverage we need.
Aside from the billions in profits, management is in a full fledged panic over the training waterfall. After years of no growth and no retirements due to age 65, the nightmare of having 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases with our PWA is coming home to roost.
All we have to do is sit back and watch the training ball get bigger and bigger and bigger.
To succeed we need to:
1) Keep profit sharing off the table at all costs.
2) Keep the AF/KLM grievance separate from C2015. Period.
3) Attain a reasonable C2015 that recognizes our contributions and sacrifices.
Iron clad scope with immediate penalties.
2004 hourly rates date of signing plus some accounting for inflation. 5% for years 2 and 3.
17% DC
42 days of vacation
5:15 per day vacation and training
$1 hour more on each per diem plus .10 per year
$4000 per year for medical HSA with roll over for unused portion
If we reduce profit sharing and fold AF/KLM grievance into C2015, WE LOSE.
Aside from the billions in profits, management is in a full fledged panic over the training waterfall. After years of no growth and no retirements due to age 65, the nightmare of having 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases with our PWA is coming home to roost.
All we have to do is sit back and watch the training ball get bigger and bigger and bigger.
To succeed we need to:
1) Keep profit sharing off the table at all costs.
2) Keep the AF/KLM grievance separate from C2015. Period.
3) Attain a reasonable C2015 that recognizes our contributions and sacrifices.
Iron clad scope with immediate penalties.
2004 hourly rates date of signing plus some accounting for inflation. 5% for years 2 and 3.
17% DC
42 days of vacation
5:15 per day vacation and training
$1 hour more on each per diem plus .10 per year
$4000 per year for medical HSA with roll over for unused portion
If we reduce profit sharing and fold AF/KLM grievance into C2015, WE LOSE.
08-23-2014, 11:17 AM
#754
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by gzsg
While some would contend we have little leverage, I disagree. We have all the leverage we need.
Aside from the billions in profits, management is in a full fledged panic over the training waterfall. After years of no growth and no retirements due to age 65, the nightmare of having 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases with our PWA is coming home to roost.
All we have to do is sit back and watch the training ball get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Aside from the billions in profits, management is in a full fledged panic over the training waterfall. After years of no growth and no retirements due to age 65, the nightmare of having 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases with our PWA is coming home to roost.
All we have to do is sit back and watch the training ball get bigger and bigger and bigger.
If you are just going to watch it, how long are you going to watch it and how does watching it create the leverage?
08-23-2014, 12:14 PM
#756
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
#3 - My point of view would not prevail on the negotiating committee or with the pilot group as a whole, and we as a pilot group would be worse off. How? Are you saying you agree with my point of view and we'd be worse off if it didn't prevail? Or are you saying we'd be worse off because it was a waste to have someone with my point of view on the negotiating committee?
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
#4 - My point of view would be altered by "reality," we'd be better off, and I would have a more informed perspective to share on these boards. That sounds to me like you're saying you think we'd be better off if I changed my point of view.
08-23-2014, 12:44 PM
#757
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
I'm saying that, if you're correct and you can't bring others around to your point of view, we all lose and you'll be correctly frustrated.
Here I'm saying that, if you're wrong and others' opinions prevail, we will be better off as a result and you will have more data points from which to form your perspective than you do now.
Here I'm saying that, if you're wrong and others' opinions prevail, we will be better off as a result and you will have more data points from which to form your perspective than you do now.
Seriously, though. I think the data points are pretty clear. We took a 42% pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced resulting in a full decade of stagnation. (Yeah, I know. You're tired of me saying that.) That represents a massive, devastating reduction in the value of our profession and our careers here at Delta. Here it is 10 years later, with our industry restructured and our company making billions, and we're still debating whether or not we should pursue restoration.
Sorry, but my "perspective" is not going to change. We should have never resigned ourselves to accepting a bankruptcy inspired lower standard for compensation for our profession. It's going to be more difficult now that we've gone down that road for almost a decade, but I still think it's worth at least trying. Assimilate that!
08-23-2014, 12:53 PM
#758
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
How did we arrive at C2K pay rates in the first place, and can we replicate that strategy?
1. We were coming off a crappy 1996 contract, the pilots were P.O.'d, just like today.
2. The company was making record profits, just like today.
3. The MEC was educating the pilot group through family awareness meetings, and openly talking about what it would take to "Restore the Profession"...unlike today.
Why won't today's MEC even speak the word, "Restoration"?
How about in addition to giving us a "Contract Comparison" comparing us to other bankruptcy contracts at AA, UAL, CAL, US Air, they show us how much MONEY the Delta Pilots have contributed to Delta's bottom line, since our pay cuts and pension terminations?
1. We were coming off a crappy 1996 contract, the pilots were P.O.'d, just like today.
2. The company was making record profits, just like today.
3. The MEC was educating the pilot group through family awareness meetings, and openly talking about what it would take to "Restore the Profession"...unlike today.
Why won't today's MEC even speak the word, "Restoration"?
How about in addition to giving us a "Contract Comparison" comparing us to other bankruptcy contracts at AA, UAL, CAL, US Air, they show us how much MONEY the Delta Pilots have contributed to Delta's bottom line, since our pay cuts and pension terminations?
08-23-2014, 01:06 PM
#759
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Timbo
How did we arrive at C2K pay rates in the first place, and can we replicate that strategy?
1. We were coming off a crappy 1996 contract, the pilots were P.O.'d, just like today.
2. The company was making record profits, just like today.
3. The MEC was educating the pilot group through family awareness meetings, and openly talking about what it would take to "Restore the Profession"...unlike today.
1. We were coming off a crappy 1996 contract, the pilots were P.O.'d, just like today.
2. The company was making record profits, just like today.
3. The MEC was educating the pilot group through family awareness meetings, and openly talking about what it would take to "Restore the Profession"...unlike today.
08-23-2014, 01:10 PM
#760
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I think the data points are pretty clear...my "perspective" is not going to change.
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