Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1901837)

OK so what block hour percentage are we currently flying in the AF/KLM JV right now?

51

Because we are supposed to be flying 50% already, although we got rolled when we allowed 50% to be defined as 48.5%.

Those are the EASKs.

Where does the 67% block hour number come from then? Even if thats with VA added in, the split with VA would have to be enormous (and in our favor) to put the entire trans Atlantic at that number.

OK. I think this is where people get confused. We have 67% because that includes the Delta UK flying. AF/KLM doesn't fly London to the US. That's why our share seems to be overstated. Don't ask me why, but "Bundle 1" in the AF/KLM JV agreement included Delta flights to the UK.

Right now we currently fly 67% block hours and that is beause of the EASK measurement methodology.

That's correct, But since the last AF/KLM JV we now have a Virgin Atlantic deal as well. The new language takes London out of the formula for AF/KLM. It has been overcome by events since the purchase of Virgin Atlantic and our deal with them.

If we abandon EASK and only go for a pernamant 49/51 reset (in management's favor, once again…WTH by the way?) then how low can our 67% go, including AF/KLM and VA total?

They didn't give that number because Paris and Amsterdam are now completely separated from London. Two different deals. The 67 is now not really relevant. That makes sense. I understand why they did it.

Your point is well taken though. If we did calculate the number, it would be lower. We have given management yet another pretty large scope concession.

Originally Posted by Pilotfo64 (Post 1901887)

Because of the loss of LCA trips alone! Do you know how many LCA trips there are in most catagories? Worth at least the 8% pay raise alone! Don't let the dog and pony show fool you-- they'll say only a handful are affected... Hell even reps that voted no say that--because they haven't researched it yet. All those lost trips trickle down folks.It will affect every FO substantially with trip seniority and progression and Greenslips will dry up like the martian soil. Spread the word! U just can't accept this TA if you are an FO.

Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1901889)

That is the issue!

This agreement has the potential to redefine DALs (EASK) share to go to roughly 35% compared to today. If we refleeted to smaller long range planes, it could go lower than that.

This is how you dismantle Delta Air lines. What's the next shoe? Codeshare with emirates, etihad, or Qatar? If this passes, expect to be even more of a domestic airline.

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1901898)

I'm with you on a lot of what you say but this is one of the main problems. The rest of the industry hasn't done jack to help us or itself. This will be our 3rd deal with no one to pattern off. It was time for someone else to set the bar higher and it never happened.

Originally Posted by GBU-24 (Post 1901874)

I just can't get my brain wrapped around why this was not pushed back...but I really can't understand why ANY FO rep would have even thought about a yes. It hurts all but on the FO side it is complete B.S.. I feel completely betrayed.

Carl it's time to order the Code Reds!

Originally Posted by ExAF (Post 1901868)

It is definitely time for the torches and pitchforks.:mad: Those that are using Tim Caplinger as an excuse not to send in a DPA card are just using that as a crutch for their inaction or fear of challenging ALPA. He has repeatedly stated he is not going to run for DPA office. His job is to get the DPA to representation vote.

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1901418)

The agreement reduces the total number of allowed RJ's from 450 to 425.