Details on Delta TA
#8481
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
They also addressed that demographically our aging pilot group should only use about 1% more, not 30% more. There has been a pilot behavior change. UAL and AMR's sick leave has decreased (no data provided) but both those properties have substantially more punitive sick leave provisions than we do, beginning with only 60 hours of accrual.
They said because of increased costs this is one of management's top priorities.
I hope one of the notepads covers this, as sick leave was just a few slides in a big deck.
#8482
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
A lot of hot air and little in regard to plan b. One participant suggests that re engaging the company is plan b. I agree.
Now let's take the next step. Does RA reward the Delta pilots and capitulate? Or does he say lets see what the NMB says?
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends. I can show you how a ratification ends. I realize it's the future and unknowable as such, but you have to have a realistic idea of a timeline and result in order to make sure it's worthwhile.
Now let's take the next step. Does RA reward the Delta pilots and capitulate? Or does he say lets see what the NMB says?
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends. I can show you how a ratification ends. I realize it's the future and unknowable as such, but you have to have a realistic idea of a timeline and result in order to make sure it's worthwhile.
In my little mind, it ends in about 18 months or less with a truly Historic contract that rewards the Delta Pilots for 12 years of concessions and sacrifices, and reflects a corporation that is returning $6 Billion to shareholders.
So what's the next step?
Vote this POS down.
Then we recall the MEC Chairman, the Strategic Planning committee, and the Negotiating Committee. Replace them with all the NO voting LEC reps and make Tom Brielmann the Chairman.
Then we start from scratch with Family Awareness meeting, informational picketing, use the Media to point out how many BILLIONS of dollars the Delta Pilots have given to SAVE DELTA, point out that we are STILL 18% below rates from 11 years ago, and we gave up BILLIONS in our DB retirement plans as well. We point out all the outsourcing of our mainline jobs to RJ's at the bottom, and to JV's at the top.
Then we go public with the company's Sick Leave proposal, and we go public with Richard's Compensation Package, and compare it to OUR compensation package!
And THEN....
We inflate the Memory Rat!
In short, we put Labor Risk right back on the table, where it BELONGS!
Without Labor Risk, you get a pos TA like this!
Why our MEC Chairman let Richard's pronouncement go unchallenged is beyond me!
#8483
Short term contracts with upfront money aren't the norm in this industry. Aside from DAL they are unheard of. SWA and FDX are still negotiating C2012... I'm not saying I'm totally jazzed about the TA. Realistically? Will R.A. capitulate? Uh, no. We are talking about rejecting the best contract in the industry... its just not the best by "enough." That alone wouldn't exactly put us high on the NMB GAS list. They wouldn't release us for years. If nothing else this management has done pretty much exactly what they have said since their arrival. I think they will back away, regroup, and reanalyze. Ball would totally be in their court and unless they have some burning need to wrap this up (one that I can't fathom) it could be a while. Not the end of the world in either case. Oh, and Denny: read the C. Suisse Piece: its got some hard fail math going on. JMO, OFG
Dang, I gotta take a break!
Denny
#8484
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: Downward-Facing Dog Pose
Posts: 1,537
let's take the next step. Does RA reward the Delta pilots and capitulate? Or does he say lets see what the NMB says?
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends.
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends.
First, observe the overall big picture. America's middle class is getting decimated, and there is (deservedly) rampant and widespread concern about that. Darn good chance the NMB is very sympathetic to this and are middle class themselves.
Second, observe record profits and exec. compensation that has been doubling every few years as the rich get richer. DAL mgmt fits right in.
Third, observe a mgmt group that wants to eat first before the troops eat (ie. RA & Co. want to get paid BEFORE profit sharing is calculated....read: they can play with their compensation to keep profits below the new profit sharing threshhold). This jibes neatly with #1 and #2 above, and can effectively shut the pilot group out of ANY profit sharing saving the company a bundle and thus jacking up the stick price. Speaking of...
Fourth, observe that DAL mgmt is engaging in a $5 BILLION dollar stock buyback scheme, when RA himself holds something like 15+ MILLION shares of stock in his personal holdings (read: he is further rewarding himself with co. $$ above and beyond his already incredibly generous compensation).
Also...
use the Media to point out how many BILLIONS of dollars the Delta Pilots have given to SAVE DELTA, point out that we are STILL 18% below rates from 11 years ago, and we gave up BILLIONS in our DB retirement plans as well. We point out all the outsourcing of our mainline jobs to RJ's at the bottom, and to JV's at the top.
Then we go public with the company's Sick Leave proposal, and we go public with Richard's Compensation Package, and compare it to OUR compensation package!
Then we go public with the company's Sick Leave proposal, and we go public with Richard's Compensation Package, and compare it to OUR compensation package!
Yeah, I'd like to go to the NMB with these facts, with one important caveat.
I want to do it with DAL's negotiators, not DALPAs.
Last edited by SayAlt; 06-13-2015 at 03:34 PM.
#8485
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 618
Details on Delta TA
That would be management's decision. In the meantime, we cash profit sharing checks until the NMB reminds management that bargaining in bad faith is a violation of the Raileay Labor Act.
Then we prepare the next grievance for when they are yet again out of compliance with the Euro JV.
Then we enjoy our privacy rights when sick. Then enjoy not having all the other concessions.
At some point, IMO, logic dictates that management will want to return. There will be too much pain for them not to.
Carl
Then we prepare the next grievance for when they are yet again out of compliance with the Euro JV.
Then we enjoy our privacy rights when sick. Then enjoy not having all the other concessions.
At some point, IMO, logic dictates that management will want to return. There will be too much pain for them not to.
Carl
I agree with all of that Carl.
The only presupposition you make I question is the idea that the NMB would think DL bargained in bad faith, when they offered industry leading rates and work rules that met or exceeded most other carriers.
At some point I agree that management blinks. Question is when? I don't know or even have a guess.
#8486
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
You said the NC got rolled and that you got slapped in the face. I showed you where to find you were incorrect.
Maybe it's time for some underboob or a pink panther gif.
#8487
At the MEC meeting the negotiating committee put up a bunch of slides on our sick leave use and its change over time. I'm working from notes, so I apologize for any errors. Since 2012 sick leave usage is up 30%. The top 20% of sick leave users that don't go on disability use 50% of our sick leave. 5% of our pilots use more than 40 days per year and never go TD or LTD.
They also addressed that demographically our aging pilot group should only use about 1% more, not 30% more. There has been a pilot behavior change. UAL and AMR's sick leave has decreased (no data provided) but both those properties have substantially more punitive sick leave provisions than we do, beginning with only 60 hours of accrual.
They said because of increased costs this is one of management's top priorities.
I hope one of the notepads covers this, as sick leave was just a few slides in a big deck.
They also addressed that demographically our aging pilot group should only use about 1% more, not 30% more. There has been a pilot behavior change. UAL and AMR's sick leave has decreased (no data provided) but both those properties have substantially more punitive sick leave provisions than we do, beginning with only 60 hours of accrual.
They said because of increased costs this is one of management's top priorities.
I hope one of the notepads covers this, as sick leave was just a few slides in a big deck.
I understand they want SL usage to go down. I was on SLOA for Oct-Jan due to a back injury. Would you like to know how many times I was contacted or contacted about transitioning to Disability? ZERO. When I was hired I was briefed, SLOA, then disability. Plus my condition was on that was PROGGED to be remedied sooner....so the lovely folks at Delta started a Sec 15b review.
If they wanted folks to use ST/LT Disability vs SLOA THEY should have pushed it.
There were no sick leave abusers in our last contract. If they used all 100 unverified and 240 total...they were still abiding by the contract - unless they had fraudulent Dr notes - if so BAD on them - but that is the company's fault. Not ours.
This TA sucks. The SLOA is the main deal killer for me. No one can spin this into a good thing.
#8488
If you read the post on chit chat where the member discussed the negotiations with his rep you will realize Gunship Guy was right about the NC.
#8489
Been working the last few days.
Do we have a consensus yet on plan B? I hear a lot saying their voting no. What is the prevailing opinion?
1. We go back to RA and he capitulates.
2. RA says pound sand and see you at the NMB in March
3. NMB says, "Damn DALPA we agree with your position and we release you for self help." Timeline?
4. NMB says "Damn DALPA, can I have some of that crack you're smoking? Here's an iceberg for you to sit on for awhile." Timeline?
5. Vote in DPA and start over.
Voting No is half the equation. The other half is what happens next and when it happens. Seems if people are going to plead that everyone should vote no, they should then tell us what to expect if successful.
Do we have a consensus yet on plan B? I hear a lot saying their voting no. What is the prevailing opinion?
1. We go back to RA and he capitulates.
2. RA says pound sand and see you at the NMB in March
3. NMB says, "Damn DALPA we agree with your position and we release you for self help." Timeline?
4. NMB says "Damn DALPA, can I have some of that crack you're smoking? Here's an iceberg for you to sit on for awhile." Timeline?
5. Vote in DPA and start over.
Voting No is half the equation. The other half is what happens next and when it happens. Seems if people are going to plead that everyone should vote no, they should then tell us what to expect if successful.
#8490
A lot of hot air and little in regard to plan b. One participant suggests that re engaging the company is plan b. I agree.
Now let's take the next step. Does RA reward the Delta pilots and capitulate? Or does he say lets see what the NMB says?
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends. I can show you how a ratification ends. I realize it's the future and unknowable as such, but you have to have a realistic idea of a timeline and result in order to make sure it's worthwhile.
Now let's take the next step. Does RA reward the Delta pilots and capitulate? Or does he say lets see what the NMB says?
Everyone voting no should have an opinion here. Let's hear them. If you want a yes voter like me to consider your view you have to show me how it ends. I can show you how a ratification ends. I realize it's the future and unknowable as such, but you have to have a realistic idea of a timeline and result in order to make sure it's worthwhile.
Who cares how long it takes? IMO C2012 is better than this TA so lets just continue business as usual.
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