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Originally Posted by Sounds
(Post 1906551)
It's not depending on your personal perspective. If you think the market bubble and environment will be better than the last couple of years then maybe the extra % of PS in C2012 will be better. If you take a defensive approach, the confirmed pay would be better with the TA.
What is the biggest concession to you? I'm not of a fan of the TA's proposed solution to sick leave, but the company isn't going to agree to anything that doesn't address it in some fashion. I'm open to alternatives. Stockholm Syndrome. Carl |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1906579)
That's pay rate only... hardly the big picture.
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Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1906581)
Wow. And look at that!
The Merkin a330 pilots make approximately 20 bills an hour more than Delta a 330 pilots. Why, that's $22,080 dollars a year more for the same job. Yay. Golf claps. Great work. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1906575)
This is exactly what I hear from the MEC administration and negotiators. Exactly. I hope everyone here sees what we're up against. Our own Union has contempt for us and contempt for our sacrifices. They're fully identifying with management now. Fully.
Is there any surprise whatsoever we're here now? Carl You know why it sounds the same? Because that's now business negotiations work. You don't get any feelings. It's a cold hard calculated business decision. I lost a god damn fortune in the bankruptcy, but apparently still have the lucidity in my brain to remove my emotion from this fiasco. Seriously, what do you want the negotiators to say? What is their argument? Feelings of injustice are not leverage. |
Originally Posted by Professor
(Post 1906507)
I think that everyone comes into a TA with their entire life's history. It informs their viewpoint on the TA and its validity in the scope of their airline experience.
The question everyone has to ask, I think, is this: are the pay increases worth the concessions? And only you can answer that. IF this TA passes in 2018 Delta pilot pay will have increased 82% in a decade. So while the past may inform everyone's decision it is important to keep in mind the reality of our contract improvements (and give backs) of the last decade are NOT normal to the history of the industry. |
Originally Posted by Professor
(Post 1906586)
The facts are the facts. Please discuss amongst yourselves in the lounges and elsewhere.
So, you are saying its a fact that Delta A330 pilots are paid the same rates or equally to Merkin A330 pilots???? Not even close. |
Originally Posted by Sounds
(Post 1906551)
It's not depending on your personal perspective. If you think the market bubble and environment will be better than the last couple of years then maybe the extra % of PS in C2012 will be better. If you take a defensive approach, the confirmed pay would be better with the TA.
What is the biggest concession to you? I'm not of a fan of the TA's proposed solution to sick leave, but the company isn't going to agree to anything that doesn't address it in some fashion. I'm open to alternatives. To me, the pay is a secondary issue. Given the current environment, and the $5,000,000,000 stock buyback program which will further enrich RA who owns 17.9 MILLION shares of co. stock, it would be absolutely LUDICROUS for the new TA not to have an increase in pay. This is ESPECIALLY true when you consider that we are simply gaining BACK...in large measure...what was given in C2012 and before. The real issues are the new concessions. ALL of them., but most especially those that create new divisions within the pilot group that will pit WB vs NB pilots, young vs. old, etc. against one another. This is completely and totally unacceptable. As for sick leave, I agree with you and am sympathetic to mgmt who feels a small % of pilots are taking advantage of the current rules. But penalizing the entire group for the actions of a dishonest few isn't the solution. Like you, I am open to alternatives. . . |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1906564)
Like I thought T Bender, you currently don't have the capacity, or perhaps just lack the ability now, to analyze how we got here and how to fix it.
You have nothing of value to add to the discussion, particularly when you get blinded by your anger. You are desperate for a few things. You have established that you want: 1. A contract that pays you now. You are well into the twilight of your shelf life as a pilot. 2. A bargaining agent that is not the DPA. You have some mighty barriers in front of your needs at this point. It obviously agitates the turds out of you as evidenced by: A. Your presence here again, albeit under a different screen name, and: B. The tone of your interactions with others here. Not real professional for someone holding the company position that you do. Try maybe coming up with ideas, solutions, that can collectively advance our group from the ditch we are in. Works better than what you are doing. On the current path, you'll just rinse and repeat - get angry, attack people here, eventually go away claiming disgust, lurk, get angry again, invent new screen name, come back, repeat. Let's start with one simple problem. One bite at a time. How does one keep DPA at bay at a a time when they will capitalize of the crisis at hand? Ideas? I don't gas about DPA other than to recognize it as what it is; a divisive entity with a divisive 'leader" t a critical juncture. But they are not the issue before us. This TA is. I have my needs and you have yours. They are probably different. My needs are different than Carl's as are yours. That doesn't make them any less valid. And not that it is any of your business at this point, I am a soft no at this point. I find it interesting that you like to say that the MEC's talking points are driving people to a no vote. Have you ever thought that you are having the opposite effect? When you berate people for having a different opinion than yours, and when those people actually read the contract language rather than bullet points and make up their minds based on what they read there rather than here, you just might be driving them to a yes vote. But you don't care about that. It takes stones to vote no and send it back, and that is what this group sorely needs, right? So let's discuss the issues, as they stand, without all the cute little Hitler videos and cute little stories, and without all the ad hominem attacks that you find so amusing. Or not. It's up to you. I really don't care. You are voting no anyway so what does it matter? |
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 1906590)
This is the lie we have to fight. There are no pay "increases" in this TA. There are only transfer payments. They are taking money from one pot and putting it in another. PS, QOL, and other employees are paying for this.
1. Where is the money coming from? 2. Do you care where it is coming from? The two places where money is really flowing is incrementally from OE/Sick changes. The 'justification' to the markets may be in the changing of other employee profit sharing. The concessions are a personal accounting only the individual pilot can answer internally. The discussion should be about the latter in my opinion. Is an attempt to transfer wealth on the back of a YES TA vote ok with you? |
Originally Posted by SayAlt
(Post 1906593)
To me, the pay is a secondary issue. Given the current environment, and the $5,000,000,000 stock buyback program which will further enrich RA who owns 17.9 MILLION shares of co. stock, it would be absolutely LUDICROUS for the new TA not to have an increase in pay. This is ESPECIALLY true when you consider that we are simply gaining BACK...in large measure...what was given in C2012 and before.
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