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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1712050)
Thanks Herk, that was exactly my point delivered with some sarcasm. I know darn well DALPA released their opening position during C2K. This despite many here saying that only the "conceptual opener" was ever released.
It still amazes me that we will never see our survey results and we will never know what our opening position is for C2015. Carl In the spring of 1999, Mr. Mullin was approached about opening negotiations early. Given his past missteps with the pilots, he agreed to begin negotiations in September, roughly 6 months early. This was set up in part by the United pilots attempt to negotiate a "seamless" agreement by April 12, 2000 -- their amendable date. In the summer of 1999, many Delta pilots began choosing to no longer fly overtime at straight rates of pay. The example of the Orlando pilots the previous year caught hold. DAL management was again caught poorly prepared and understaffed. Running the operation relied too much on pilot cooperation. Voluntary Greenslips had been on a steady rise. Suddenly Green Slip with Conflict (GSWC) was the word of the day among line pilots. Crew schedulers were told to violate the contract, if need be, in order to keep the operation moving. They were also told to avoid GSWC if at all possible. Delta management very seriously considered taking the pilots to court. We have recently become aware that experienced mid-level people in Crew Resources urged management to hire heavily starting in late '96 or early '97. Management was using a new computer program with 'softer' requirements. They apparently believed they could just ride out the post Contract '96 signing surge, where 550 furloughed pilots were rehired. The rest is history. A combination of hiring and training limitations caused Delta to get behind in manning. They never caught up. THAT is the genesis of many of our problems today. In the midst of all this, negotiations were under way for Delta's new B-777's. The Delta MEC's opening position of $346.44 became the shot heard around the aviation world; we just didn't know it at the time. An L-1011 Captain's pay, adjusted for inflation since 1985, should have been paying over $280. It was paying $215.06. The efficiency and productivity of a B-777 mandated a rate over $300. Mr. Mullin threatened to sell the B-777's and in June '99, publicly announced this would happen. Two B-777's had been converted to B-767 orders already. But there was a problem; negotiations also had to begin on Delta's new B-767-400's. This time, Boeing was NOT going to begin production unless Delta committed to actually buying the aircraft. Delta was the launch customer. No more last minute cancellations of orders. In the end, the Delta pilots achieved $265 for the B-777, $243.80 for the B-767-400; plus a 3% raise and the end of the B-scale for ALL Delta pilots, and some small vacation improvements. Delta's $265 for the B-777 put the United pilot negotiating team in an awkward position -- their table position was less than $265. Plus they now knew that Delta pilots would raise that rate again in Contract 2000 negotiations. UAL management spent 9 months trying to convince the UAL pilot negotiators that the DAL rate was an anomaly. The UAL negotiators knew differently. In August 2000, the UAL negotiators approached the Delta MEC Chairman and Negotiating Committee -- they HAD to know what our compensation goals were for our Contract 2000. The B-777 agreement had given us huge credibility. The "Delta dot" of $265 was a hurdle that had to be cleared in the first year at United. The UAL negotiators could not significantly undershoot the Contract 2000 goals of the Delta pilots. Although the Delta MEC had not approved any specific compensation numbers, the UAL negotiators were shown "the target". Under the pressure of a pending merger with USAir, plus the United pilots' refusal to fly overtime, UAL management conceded. The "United line" had now exceeded the "Delta dot". "Restore the Profession,"(Delta pilot's Contract 2000 slogan), took on a whole new meaning. It was actually happening faster than many had expected. On May 2, 2000 Delta pilots picketed for the third time in history. This marked the contract amendable date and the desire of Delta pilots to move forward from the huge concessions of Contract '96. Standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" with fellow pilots took on a whole new meaning. For the first time, Delta pilots realized that they were not alone in their willingness to act in a unified manner. Acting like a union was no longer unthinkable for Delta pilots as over 1200 pilots participated in the picketing. To mark the one-year anniversary of negotiations, the union hosted a September 8 rally in Atlanta. Again, over 1300 pilots and family members turned out for the "It's About Time" rally. Management was getting nervous -- the pilots were acting in a truly unified manner. Polling numbers showed that the number of pilots willing to go on strike and shut down the airline was skyrocketing. In the spring of 1996, just prior to signing on to the concessions of Contract '96, barely 20% of Delta pilots were willing to strike for any length of time. Just over four years later, over 95% were now willing to strike "for as long as it takes" in order to achieve an industry-leading contract. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1712214)
So post the Block hour costs Carl. They are easy to find for 2013.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1712364)
Changing the subject won't help you sailingfun. The subject is your continued used of carefully crafted words used for the specific purpose to deceive. The subject was your use of the phrase "to staff a 737" instead of a specific pilot based metric which is what the poster was referring to. You responded by changing the metric. We called you on it. We won't have to if you would stop doing that.
Carl Quote: Originally Posted by Flamer Don't ruin the attempted sales job with logic like TFP conversions, actual W2 pay, non-guaranteed pay like PS etc. not to mention the basic failure where we are comparing 777 pay to 737 pay. Let's just start 73 to 73 and do w2/TAFB. It will blow your mind how far ahead SWA still is. Delta's block our cost to staff a 737 is well above SW for 2013 the last year the data is out for. We are almost 20% above them. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 1712240)
And your response to management's burning desire for pay banding and longer freezes?
I hope you are right and management doesn't even bring up reducing profit sharing AGAIN this round. But you are wrong. Join the fight and make the calls. Jerry |
Originally Posted by zoomiezombie
(Post 1712348)
Wrong, yet again. 3B6 was where the original 777 number came from. The C2K opener was conceptual and then the existing 3B6 negotiation was overlaid on top of that to double down in C2K by pattern bargaining UAL. Your handler isn't feeding you properly.
But I did find this portion of your linked post interesting: --------------------- ...For the first time, Delta pilots realized that they were not alone in their willingness to act in a unified manner. Acting like a union was no longer unthinkable for Delta pilots as over 1200 pilots participated in the picketing... ...Management was getting nervous -- the pilots were acting in a truly unified manner. ...Polling numbers showed that the number of pilots willing to go on strike and shut down the airline was skyrocketing. In the spring of 1996, just prior to signing on to the concessions of Contract '96, barely 20% of Delta pilots were willing to strike for any length of time. Just over four years later, over 95% were now willing to strike "for as long as it takes" in order to achieve an industry-leading contract. ----------------- There's no question that Delta pilot "have it in them." This was proof. But now our union has been completely co-opted by Delta management. I don't know if we can muster the effort to force our union to behave like a union. The recall of every ATL rep would be a great start. Carl |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1712380)
No real idea what your talking about. Here is the original post. Pilot block hour cost is the one metric that defines everything in a contract. Pay, work rules, retirement ect. Our block hour costs are well above...
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1711707)
Delta's block our cost to staff a 737 is well above SW for 2013 the last year the data is out for. We are almost 20% above them.
Carl |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1712390)
Prove...... it......
I'll bet we will be seeing SDPs proposed by them again, though. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1712391)
Why would you post all that when it has nothing to do with the discussion? The discussion is about whether the C2K opener was ever released to the pilots. It absolutely was. That's not in dispute. It was not "just conceptual", it was detailed like our NWA openers were. Now this union REFUSES to do that, just like it refuses to ever release survey results.
But I did find this portion of your linked post interesting: --------------------- ...For the first time, Delta pilots realized that they were not alone in their willingness to act in a unified manner. Acting like a union was no longer unthinkable for Delta pilots as over 1200 pilots participated in the picketing... ...Management was getting nervous -- the pilots were acting in a truly unified manner. ...Polling numbers showed that the number of pilots willing to go on strike and shut down the airline was skyrocketing. In the spring of 1996, just prior to signing on to the concessions of Contract '96, barely 20% of Delta pilots were willing to strike for any length of time. Just over four years later, over 95% were now willing to strike "for as long as it takes" in order to achieve an industry-leading contract. ----------------- There's no question that Delta pilot "have it in them." This was proof. But now our union has been completely co-opted by Delta management. I don't know if we can muster the effort to force our union to behave like a union. The recall of every ATL rep would be a great start. Carl Although the Delta MEC had not approved any specific compensation numbers, the UAL negotiators were shown "the target". |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1712396)
I gotta side with you on this one. Not once have I heard anything of the sort except from Jerry.
I'll bet we will be seeing SDPs proposed by them again, though. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1712050)
Thanks Herk, that was exactly my point delivered with some sarcasm. I know darn well DALPA released their opening position during C2K. This despite many here saying that only the "conceptual opener" was ever released.
It still amazes me that we will never see our survey results and we will never know what our opening position is for C2015. Carl |
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