Originally Posted by GenX (Post 1897545)

If the pilots give up PS will the other employee groups lose some as well?

I wonder how 80,000 employees would feel about that if they knew that the pilots MEC and ultimately pilot vote had their PS in their hands? I wonder if those 80,000 are aware of this? Talk about pressure........Or is this going to be like the pensions that only pilots give back and everybody else keeps? The benefits of voting indirectly for all come with draw backs I guess. I guess it would suck to not have a union and lose PS at the whim of some other group.

Many questions without answers. If my PS where in the hands of another group I would want answers.

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1897543)

I hope this is is discussed at the open meeting--specifically, how many fewer pilots will be needed as a result.

I can't fathom how any FO rep, if he's really representing his FOs, could possibly vote yes to a TA with any such provision

Originally Posted by Psycho (Post 1897548)

I'd CONSIDER this, but, look at ALL parts of the contract!
Too many look at JUST pay rates.
Medical, Sick Leave, Profit Sharing, Work Rules, etc.
Look at everything BEFORE biting on pay rates.

Originally Posted by Flying Elvis (Post 1897551)

With the caveat that these are all still rumors, I can't see how any rep at all could vote yes to this.

Even assuming every Capt is a narcissistic, self-serving jerk... and that's a false assumption because that just doesn't fit the profile of the Capts with whom I've flown, this change would affect all except the most senior Captains in the most senior categories.

1. Look at the senior F/Os in the NB categories that are currently ripe with LCA/GS opportunities. Many of them could hold Capt, and quite senior in some cases, but may be staying in their current slot precisely because they can reap the GS windfall. That goes away, and I believe many will go to the left seat, bumping a lot of Capts down.
2. Similarly, look at the seniority of the middle/lower half of widebody F/Os, many of whom could hold Capt in various categories. If staffing requirements for widebody F/Os goes down - and it will, that will likewise require and/or incentivize many of them to hop to available A slots, again bumping a lot of Capts down.

Originally Posted by DALMD88FO (Post 1897546)

The answer is probably. When we voted in C2012, and it had a reduction in profit sharing, the company turned around and took it from the other employee groups and replaced it with another raise.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1897486)

Not selling anything- but seriously, are we really this hooked on profit sharing... WE WORK FOR AN AIRLINE. We're going to be in the red again, guaranteed, probably within the decade. RA has probably single digit years with us left.

I have a price for portions of profit sharing turned into actual increases in pay rates and soft pay (I'm ALL about soft pay- that way it looks like we make less to the other groups).

Here's the catch: When PS trade deducted out, what is left in the TA has to be appropriate gains in this environment.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1897522)

100% agreed. It's Section 1 for a reason.

On another subject:

It occurs to me that all this talk about various concessions and what is and is not acceptable is the end result of a long and deliberate campaign of expectation-setting. It began nyearly a year ago with Richard declaring his wish to have a contract ahead of time. This was repeated often until it became a widely held expectation that we would have a contract ahead of time - even the company wanted it! Followed and reinforced by the "On TimeOn Target" slogan from DALPA. Various social media grenades about at-risk compensation to start that conversation going. Frequent negotiations updates that never contained any real information but strongly emphasized the historically fast nature of the negotiations and how much this showed the company's commitment. The company using the check airman corps to spread rumors of their wish list, such as the oft-repeated claim that our sick time usage is much higher than other pilots or our productivity is far lower. A nearly constant barrage of rumors throughout negotiations from dubious sources, often conflicting but most generally concerning various concessions that had supposedly already been granted.

The cumulative effect is one of induced negotiation fatigue - only a couple months into negotiations and well before our current contract expires! - and a reflexively defensive posture in what ought to be a wildly positive negotiating environment. Somewhere at Ford & Harrison, there is a powerpoint file that was presented 2 years ago that outlined this precise strategy. They have some of the world's best corporate psychologists working for them. They know the pilot psyche very well.

In preparation for giving this TA an honest and thorough evaluation, we need to consider the effects of the company's manipulations on our own state of mind, and apply countermeasures. Think back over everything that has happened the last six months, realize that nearly every single step was likely intentional, and consider what the intended effect on your attitude was. Before these manipulations, what was your evaluation of the health of the company and industry and your expectations for your next contract? This will make a good yardstick by which to measure the coming TA.