Originally Posted by GenX (Post 1897558)

Seems to me they should be made aware. Most of the other employee groups are not aware that the reason that they get profit sharing is because ALPA negotiated it for the pilots during the same time that we were losing our retirement. The company then gave it to the other employee groups. I don't know how many times an FA will come to the cockpit after Feb 14th asking if we get profit sharing too. The 80,000 might have something to say about losing PS during record profits. Well they wouldn't be losing it, it would be modified just like ours. As for having something to say about it, well no they do not. The company could, at any time, decide to stop profit sharing completely for the other employee groups. Management would then have more things to worry about so it will not happen. They might find nobody is listening and they need to find a voice for themselves. Last thing I would want is some small group of people speaking for me. Especially if their going to give up PS during record profits. Might be the final straw for some. Likewise I would not want to give up PS knowing other groups are going to keep it, if that's the case. On this we agree however I would be willing to place a bet that the other employee groups PS will change before the ink is dry on our new contract.

Many questions that need to be answered to the masses publicly to make and informed vote. This won't happen. One thing to consider among other things. However, this one thing affects many. As they say Delta airlines, 80,000 STRONG.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1897067)

Once again, you are only right in the short term. When bad times happen, and they will, our "not at risk" PS monetization will become very much at risk. Yet in good times or in bad, we will never get back this level of PS under any circumstance. PS concessions from now on are a one way check valve.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1897522)

100% agreed. It's Section 1 for a reason.

On another subject:

It occurs to me that all this talk about various concessions and what is and is not acceptable is the end result of a long and deliberate campaign of expectation-setting. It began nearly a year ago with Richard declaring his wish to have a contract ahead of time. This was repeated often until it became a widely held expectation that we would have a contract ahead of time - even the company wanted it! Followed and reinforced by the "On TimeOn Target" slogan from DALPA. Various social media grenades about at-risk compensation to start that conversation going. Frequent negotiations updates that never contained any real information but strongly emphasized the historically fast nature of the negotiations and how much this showed the company's commitment. The company using the check airman corps to spread rumors of their wish list, such as the oft-repeated claim that our sick time usage is much higher than other pilots or our productivity is far lower. A nearly constant barrage of rumors throughout negotiations from dubious sources, often conflicting but most generally concerning various concessions that had supposedly already been granted.

The cumulative effect is one of induced negotiation fatigue - only a couple months into negotiations and well before our current contract expires! - and a reflexively defensive posture in what ought to be a wildly positive negotiating environment. Somewhere at Ford & Harrison, there is a powerpoint file that was presented 2 years ago that outlined this precise strategy. They have some of the world's best corporate psychologists working for them. They know the pilot psyche very well.

In preparation for giving this TA an honest and thorough evaluation, we need to consider the effects of the company's manipulations on our own state of mind, and apply countermeasures. Think back over everything that has happened the last six months, realize that nearly every single step was likely intentional, and consider what the intended effect on your attitude was. Before these manipulations, what was your evaluation of the health of the company and industry and your expectations for your next contract? This will make a good yardstick by which to measure the coming TA.

Originally Posted by shiznit (Post 1897606)

Penny for your thoughts:
How quickly did the "not at risk PS"(aka pay rates) disappear after 9/11?

How quickly did actual profits disappear after 9/11?

How much have the rules for Ch. 11 changed since that "haircut" was forced by the Company?

Are you of the opinion that PS and rates are of equal risk today as they were 10 years ago?

Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob (Post 1897351)

Hate to say it, but all it'll take is for either Israel, Iran, or ISIS to pop off a nuke and this whole thing becomes an academic argument. The ME will cease to exist as a transit hub.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1897620)

Pay rates are far more at risk than PS. DALPA/management are all in on profits for the shareholders. DALPA would sign away pay rates in two seconds to help preserve profits.

Carl

Originally Posted by Free Mason (Post 1897625)

Huh?

PS is a math exercise on operational profit. Pay rates are negotiated and require renegotiation to change; up or down.

Look at the balance sheet from 2001-2005 versus today. How long do you think DAL could be bleeding cash given how leveraged the company was then versus today?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1897438)

It's not my mantra, it's Richard's and Ed's mantra. They would pay a legal penalty for making a false public statement...you won't.



If you want to make the case that C2012 didn't have concessions, knock yourself out.



It adds up to Richard and Ed, and they have the data...you don't.



But it will probably get you some flight pay loss Bananie. You're a loyal soldier.

Carl