Airline Pilot Central Forums - Details on Delta TA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 76drvr (Post 1711401)

Wait, USAirways exited bankruptcy in 2005, UAL exited Bankruptcy in 2006, Delta didn't exit bankruptcy until 2007.

My mistake. I meant to convey that the others were in bankruptcy almost twice as long as Delta and Northwest. Those other carriers were left in a more damaged condition than the two of us.

That's why people who crow about the progress of Delta/Northwest as being proof of the appeasement strategy's success are doing so while ignoring the fact that our other competitors in the race are/were in quicksand. That does not mean you're good at racing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76drvr (Post 1711401)

We all went through mergers and had opportunities to improve our contracts and USAirways and UAL had a 1-2 year head start exiting bankruptcy, yet DAL has a better contract.

Yet both USAirways and United were in bankruptcy twice as long as we were and were far more damaged financially than us. Our "union's" strategy of appeasement has only shown positive results because of comparisons to very weakened competitors.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 1711468)

I think we should take a pay cut and spend the rest of our careers on the jet we fly today.

Well, I think we should be forced to sacrifice our QOL to chase a few coveted gold seats that are occupied by guys that are 10 years younger just to make a few more sheckles. And keep in mind that those seats could be sold by guys that have the power to sell them whenever they decide to change the fleet makeup of the airline. Afterall, don't we all aspire to be sitting shortcall when we are 63 years old? Oh wait... we already have that.

You win again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76drvr (Post 1711406)

Carl, a strike wasn't on the table at the time we negotiated the Delta Dot. That happened about a year later if I recall.

You're trying to move the goal posts by discussing delta dot. This is what you said earlier:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76drvr (Post 1711156)

We pattern bargained off of UAL. Got UAL +1% when the NMB released us into a thirty day cooling off period. I think we were about two weeks from an authorized strike.

This discussion is about how you actually USE the leverage you might have at any given point. The Delta MEC got those record rates because of your willingness to use the ultimate weapon, not because you appeased Mullin. Leverage is worthless without a strategy to USE that leverage. Our current MEC does not have that desire and Richard knows it. That's why Richard was able to say with such confidence that labor had been taken completely off the table at Delta. Not a single member of the MEC has disagreed with Richard's statement.

My point in all this is to get people to stop talking about leverage because it's putting the cart before the horse. First you must develop a strategy to actually USE the leverage. Our MEC is consistently silent on any methodology to USE leverage. That's because our union has been successfully co-opted by Delta management. What Richard learned best while working for Frank Lorenzo is that you can't win against a union by attacking them head on. He's learned that you remove the labor risk inherent in a union, by owning the union.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRicco (Post 1711483)

FWIW, SWA trip pay converts to an hourly rate of $216. I am not looking right now, but I think that is well below our 777/744 rates.

I believe that is correct. Last I saw, I think their actual rate (based on TFP) was $186. The big difference back around the time of C2012 was that their TFP system, work rules, and their ability to pick up premium pay resulted in a W2 that averaged over $240K (for Captains), without having to work a lot of extra days. Since that time, my understanding is their situation has resulted in a lot less opportunity for premium pay... so we probably are ahead of them now. Of course, our rates are 34% below the buying power they had 10 years ago... so we've got that going for us. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1711440)

On 1 jan the rate goes to 270.00. Add in the DC plan and profit sharing around 15% and were talking 350.00 per hour.
We also worked few hours in 2013.then SW and earned more credit. One JoBerg trip on a GS could pay over 20 grand for 3 days.

Why do you continue to add profit sharing to any of our rates?

It is not a valid comparison. Then again, most people here know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1711322)

Hey buzz and the other LAX bro's...are the LAX reps pu$$ies like the ATL reps? Do they need to be replaced?

Carl

What a clASSless act! This is how you treat your brethren pilots, your coworkers and fellow professionals? Have you ever met or spoken to all of them? Because our fellow pilot VOLUNTEERS don't see it the same way as you, you result to name calling? What an immature, clASSless act you are Carl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76drvr (Post 1711410)

It was an illegal job action, something Timbo advocates. Apples and apples. Now how did that work out for the controllers?

Do you advocate that Lee Moaks quotes in the recent article did us no harm for future negotiations? Until he puts out in writing that the article misquoted him 100%, I have to believe it printed what he said and what he meant. PUB conversations don't change that. The recent widget refers to the importance of being truthful. Is labor unrest really off the table?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1711518)

And at least you carry more passengers in a given month than Carl or Timbo or probably me... but make a lot less. So we got that going for us too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager (Post 1711603)

Why do you continue to add profit sharing to any of our rates?

It is not a valid comparison. Then again, most people here know that.

Agreed. Profit sharing is a benefit that cannot be counted on. To include it is extremely disingenuous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbo (Post 1711477)

You might want to change the batteries in your calculator SF.

1.15 x $270 = $310.50, which is still $9/hr. below our 2004 pay rate, 11 years later, oh, and 11 years ago we had a DB plan too! :rolleyes:

Also, the JNB trip is 5 days, not 3. :rolleyes:

Just about nobody with a regular line can greenslip one due to the new FAR's. (100 in 28). If you already have a 78hr. line, you can't add a 32hr. trip to it in most cases. There are lots of them in open time that can't be picked up, or assigned as GS, except to a reserve, who might be using rolling thunder, if he's smart, but he won't get double pay for the trip, just 32hrs. over the cap. That new FAR has become a bidding-math nightmare, month to month, but it has also required more pilots at the top, which is good for everyone.

And for 76 driver, I think that SW rate you are looking at is their 'trip pay' which is less than one hour. Converted to one hour, they are right up there with our 777/747 rates.

If I run for MEC Chairman, can I count on your support? How's your strike fund funded? It's nice that we no longer have the "Golden Handcuffs" of a DB plan to worry about if we do walk.

Your point about ATC taking 11 years to replace 11 thousand controllers only strengthens my point, they can't replace all of us overnight.

Now, if we could get some industry wide support from the other two majors airlines, that would help us all. Why there was no call for a National SOS when we all started losing our pay/retirements is beyond me. Absent that leverage, what do you have left to negotiate with?

I wonder what our MEC discussed with the other ALPA groups, AA and the SWAPA in Chicago? I hope it was finding some mutual ground for support to get the RLA changed.

Don't ruin the attempted sales job with logic like TFP conversions, actual W2 pay, non-guaranteed pay like PS etc. not to mention the basic failure where we are comparing 777 pay to 737 pay. Let's just start 73 to 73 and do w2/TAFB. It will blow your mind how far ahead SWA still is.